Anyone miss the old visage?Or it is just me?

[UltimateTroll]

I didnt play back then, but ive heard about A milion things In the older versions of dota, A lot of which were unbalanced/overpowered. To play visage properly, u have to use familiars well, and micro ur hero in the meantime, a task too difficult for most dota players. The hero itself is nice, nerfed quite A bit recently tho, so it aint really played A lot.

[LEEKING2005]

Yes, until 6.12. In other words, until IceFrog got in charge, it was still old (probably Guisoo's) hero.

And that is my point. Guinsoo was collecting and introducing new stuff while IceFrog was focusing on balacing.

You can find more heroes or skills that got nerfed a lot.
I could complain that Void used to have global 2.5 seconds long stun that affected building as well.
Now the spell has 425 radius while it used to affect area of 15000 x 15000 units. Lame ability, isn't it?

Not really, I think the opposite for what IF and Guinsoo's impact to Dota. I would say Guinsoo is balancing the game a lot (5.84 to 6.12) but IF is making huge changes and unbalancing many hero for far too many heroes to describe in single thread.

For an example we take the skill black-hole (which is the longest cd in dota 2), if you know how to play enigma you know how powerful this skill used to be. But IF just think that black-hole was OP and the stronger version of black hole (Chrono Sphere) should be 60 seconds cd.

What do you think if you saw cancel-able 4 sec stun consider far more op than un-cancel-able 5 sec stun? That is just absurd like saying Witch doctor, pugna or pheonix ulti should be nerve cause it deal too many damage if uninterrupted. Faceless with 0 net worth can easily land a 2+ enemies Chrono than an Enigma with 2000 networth (with dagger of escape).

Also, I would say globally stun 2.5 is < 5 sec aoe stun in this case.

For 2.5 seconds you can't do much for the time being stun, but with 4/4.5/5 sec stun triple kill in early game is guaranteed if you combo void properly with many other heroes (if you live in the version until 6.12 you know how many golden combo can form with void). It was the hardest combo to break even now a day cause there is just 2 many combo possibly which can guarantee kill in 5 seconds.

For me IF didn't do balancing very well, it just make some hero extremely broken and some extremely OP. The most contributing things IF ever do was inventing those new item. But again, every changelog it makes the game more and more unbalance.

And that all just a tip in the iceberg, if I want to going explain every unwise change-log it could make a bible, literally.

I didnt play back then, but ive heard about A milion things In the older versions of dota, A lot of which were unbalanced/overpowered. To play visage properly, u have to use familiars well, and micro ur hero in the meantime, a task too difficult for most dota players. The hero itself is nice, nerfed quite A bit recently tho, so it aint really played A lot.

And you think a players start with Visage and Chen in Dota 1 don't know how to micro without script?

Obviously I'm talking about how broken the skill visage had even with perfect micro managing.

Think about meepo, you think no one can master meepo in Dota 1? I'm not say Meepo is weak but he just too easy to counter so it will not winning a game with pro, and Visage like only had 10% of Meepo damage output, 30% of meepo survivability and 30% of Meepo control.

New visage is like a pure food in most of the heroes pick and players' mind. Stop kidding yourself and try to actually read my post.

I'm welcoming reasoning but there are a lot of hero need extensively micro managing(Chen, Brood, Beast master,enchantress, meepo, old undying etc), no one as broken as new visage.

[iErnesto94]

In dota 3.76c there was not item to reveal invis hero. That was lame.

[Astaroth]

Guinsoo collected most of the DotA maps available by that time (no main developer, non protected map) and merged them into DotA AllStars, added new stuff, recipes, Roshan and more.

I know there were more ppl around but w/e.

Guinsoo was literally known for bad balancing tries!

Well, you can say he maybe did some good decisions between 5.84 and 6.12, yet he was there from 3.xx version.

Still, IceFrog did the balancing thing after he took over the map.

Later IceFrog went a different way and made the game somehow faster, boosting some heroes and nerfing others. Yet still, it was IceFrog who balanced the game.

How can you say that, if I understand you correctly, that Chrosphere is stronger version of Black Hole?

If you want to compare these 2 skill, we can.

Chrono does 0 dmg while Black Hole up to 600 to each affected hero.

In Chrono, only 1 affected hero can act. One of ten. In Black hole, any Enigma's allies can act.

Chrono has cooldown of 110 seconds, 60 with Agha.
Black hole with agha does extra dmg of Midnight Pulse at current level.

Chronosphere, as you said, can't be canceled but Void can be stunned or disabled as well, making Chronosphere useless same as when Black hole gets interrupted.

Void doesn't need blink dagger to cast good Chrono but he does need gold to do some damage.
Enigma needs blink dagger to cast good Black hole and does not need any other items.

This being said, shows that Black Hole is more powerfull or usefull than Chrono. Thus nerfed by having longer cd.
It isn't absurd.

I would add one thing, Black Hole was once improved - when it stopped damaging allies.

[LEEKING2005]

Guinsoo collected most of the DotA maps available by that time (no main developer, non protected map) and merged them into DotA AllStars, added new stuff, recipes, Roshan and more.

I know there were more ppl around but w/e.

Guinsoo was literally known for bad balancing tries!

Well, you can say he maybe did some good decisions between 5.84 and 6.12, yet he was there from 3.xx version.

Still, IceFrog did the balancing thing after he took over the map.

Later IceFrog went a different way and made the game somehow faster, boosting some heroes and nerfing others. Yet still, it was IceFrog who balanced the game.

How can you say that, if I understand you correctly, that Chrosphere is stronger version of Black Hole?

If you want to compare these 2 skill, we can.

Chrono does 0 dmg while Black Hole up to 600 to each affected hero.

In Chrono, only 1 affected hero can act. One of ten. In Black hole, any Enigma's allies can act.

Chrono has cooldown of 110 seconds, 60 with Agha.
Black hole with agha does extra dmg of Midnight Pulse at current level.

Chronosphere, as you said, can't be canceled but Void can be stunned or disabled as well, making Chronosphere useless same as when Black hole gets interrupted.

Void doesn't need blink dagger to cast good Chrono but he does need gold to do some damage.
Enigma needs blink dagger to cast good Black hole and does not need any other items.

This being said, shows that Black Hole is more powerfull or usefull than Chrono. Thus nerfed by having longer cd.
It isn't absurd.

I would add one thing, Black Hole was once improved - when it stopped damaging allies.

1. Black hole only doing 200/400/600 damage if enemy are in the center of the black hole (i remember the further you are from center less damage dealt to you, not sure on latest version though) AND the black hole was uninterrupted. Those damage was insignificant on lv 6 and lv 11 (not to mention late game) if you channelling your ulti only 50% or 75% of the ulti duration.

2. You had to stand there and not be able to save your self from range attack, stun and other damage source. Void can easily escape after he cast the chrono. Also void can freely deal attack after he is chrono but enigma had to doing the insignificant damage of black hole, the different may not sound that bad in early game, but it do scale up in huge different after 30 minutes of the game.

3. Anyone know that the correct way of using Chrono is not when the team-fight took place, but to initiate the team-fight by stunning the tower with 2/3 enemies (Or cutting the enemy back line). Black hole usually cannot use to initiate cause you had to use your allies to bait out some of the go through bkb stun, enigma had very low armor + black hole didn't stun tower + enigma walk very slow so it will not be a good idea.

4. I don't wanna go into the detail of survivability, mobility, defensive skill, cast range, turn rate, and etc stat between void and enigma, you just need to know void is less gold dependant and had far more powerful ulti.

5. Both ulti can be counter by stun, but in void ulti case the stun doesn't cancel chrono effect, it only cancel THE DAMAGE DEAL BY VOID in chrono. We all know in order to save someone on chrono is not to stun void, it is to stun the void's combo partner. Void only deal single targeted damage in early game, but void+any decent aoe damage dealer can easily triple kill in lv 6. For example faceless + elder titan, infamous void+ witch doctor, void + invoker  etc ... ... It just too many combo to mention, good luck in stunning void + elder titan + jakiro + zeus to "cancel" the Chrono. In enigma case stun him cancel both the damage and effect of black hole, that why it is call channelling effect. Chrono cannot be interrupt, even void get kill, that why it was not channelling effect ... ... I feel like i'm repeating my self way too much already~

Thus being said, in 1 v 1 game both ulti is more or less the same (late game void will deal much more than 400/600 damage though), not in 5v5 game (why not make wd ulti not channelling effect), please don't even discriminating my IQ by saying black hole > Chrono. I don't even think you mean it if your last reply wasn't so damn long.

PS: It is this kind of retarded balancing that leave me wonder IF is balancing the game or unbalancing the game, 160 vs 60 sec ulti, and aghaim adding midnight pulse which is ALSO F****** channelling effect. This kind of balancing is beyond godlike.

[Astaroth]

1. Max dmg is at the center only, ofc. The spell itself still does dmg, unlike Choro. Plus Enigma can cast Midnight pulse (or just have Agha) to add extra dmg.

2. Void in Chrono still can get hurt. He can run, yes. He either use Time walk to get in right position to ulty or keeps it for escape. Or has to buy Dagger which counters your point that Void needs 0 gold, while Enigma needs over 2k.

3. I wouldn't say that Chrono is used just to initiate. Chrono takes some time to be cast, giving enemies a chance to blink away or make themselfs invulnerable (especially when you use Time walk to get to the place).
Timing is the key and waiting to cast Chrono, instead of initiating with it, can change the outcome of the battle.

Black Hole is perfect to initiate with if you can hit "the dangerous" heroes: disablers. You don't need to worry about bkb as Black Hole goes through.
Tower won't kill you in those 4 seconds and even if you die after good Black hole, your team should already be in significant advantage.

4. I always considered Void a carry and Enigma a support.
Main purpose of Enigma is to disable enemy team while your team wipes them out.
Carry Void, well, needs more than the blink dagger to do his part.

5. And stun can be countered by bkb.
Enigma with bkb is basically unstoppable and all the combos you mentioned works as well. Furthermore, there are more combos as Black Hole doesn't disable your allies and drags enemies closer together.

[CoMMoN1337]

visage is a shit hero, always has been
at times it was ok, never good

Just because you never learn that hero doesn't mean it was shitty, he used to had the current Mercurial 3rd skill before it was nerve (which is 28% damage reflecting,regardless of range and go through bkb).

ROFL
You are a fucking random clueless insect, you have absolutely no idea about the game, you should not talk about it.

[LEEKING2005]

1. Max dmg is at the center only, ofc. The spell itself still does dmg, unlike Choro. Plus Enigma can cast Midnight pulse (or just have Agha) to add extra dmg.

2. Void in Chrono still can get hurt. He can run, yes. He either use Time walk to get in right position to ulty or keeps it for escape. Or has to buy Dagger which counters your point that Void needs 0 gold, while Enigma needs over 2k.

3. I wouldn't say that Chrono is used just to initiate. Chrono takes some time to be cast, giving enemies a chance to blink away or make themselfs invulnerable (especially when you use Time walk to get to the place).
Timing is the key and waiting to cast Chrono, instead of initiating with it, can change the outcome of the battle.

Black Hole is perfect to initiate with if you can hit "the dangerous" heroes: disablers. You don't need to worry about bkb as Black Hole goes through.
Tower won't kill you in those 4 seconds and even if you die after good Black hole, your team should already be in significant advantage.

4. I always considered Void a carry and Enigma a support.
Main purpose of Enigma is to disable enemy team while your team wipes them out.
Carry Void, well, needs more than the blink dagger to do his part.

5. And stun can be countered by bkb.
Enigma with bkb is basically unstoppable and all the combos you mentioned works as well. Furthermore, there are more combos as Black Hole doesn't disable your allies and drags enemies closer together.

If I understand your statement correctly you are saying.

1. In 1v1, lv 6 void can easily deal 200 damage. In 5v5 black hole can be cancel. Chrono > Black hole

2. To cast ulti void need 0 gold, only to ESCAPE after he ulti he need dagger; while Enigma need bkb + dagger just to cast ulti. Chrono > blackhole. Also void ulti can use to save himself in some situation, enigma ulti cannot use for escape. Chrono > black hole

3. Tower will kill you, in lv 6 you had extremely slow walking speed and melee casting range of black hole. so in order to pull it off without dagger when you cast black hole you generally already 30% hp. Black hole can give you significant advantage for team-fight, so do Chrono. But chrono is easier to pull off, lower cd, harder to interrupt and so Chrono > black hole.

4. So you just pull out a support card. So this is how IF balancing game, because you are a "support" you need to be extremely weak and your skill had to be channelling effect and also 160 cd. Because void is  a "carry" he need to had un-cancelable Chrono and 60 sec cd. That is what I'm saying, you are unbalancing those hero by making some weak hero weaker and make some OP hero more OP. Carry void need 0 gold to do enigma part, but enigma need 20k gold to do void part (even with refresher Enigma ulti never reach 60 cd).

If making weak hero weaker and making OP hero far more OP is balancing the game yeah good job there~ Cannot be better.

5. Many hero can go though bkb, EG: vengeful ulti, beast master roar, bane ulti and etc. You should say bkb + linken +skillful player + Enigma is unstopable. But so do Skillful player + void. Chrono > blackhole.

visage is a shit hero, always has been
at times it was ok, never good

Just because you never learn that hero doesn't mean it was shitty, he used to had the current Mercurial 3rd skill before it was nerve (which is 28% damage reflecting,regardless of range and go through bkb).

ROFL
You are a fucking random clueless insect, you have absolutely no idea about the game, you should not talk about it.

Human language please, random insect~

[Astaroth]

I'll just cut it short: I agree with IceFrog.

[jeandarc]

Why is this guy even trying to fight commy when he will obviously lose

[CoMMoN1337]

Completely braindead individual, nothing to talk about with him.

[LEEKING2005]

I'll just cut it short: I agree with IceFrog.

You can have your own opinion, but I thought now even the most beginner player in DotA society know the fact given what happen recently (or not~).

So the void won TI5 fair and square, that amazed me cause the nowadays so called professional player in tournament's final don't even know how to counter a moderate skill void player.

It actually doesn't surprise me that much they cannot counter void combo cause I know it is nearly impossible with their skill but they could at least acknowledge what kind of hero is void and banned him in the next match. They just show completely ignorance in Dota OP hero history.

I don't think the chinese won the TI5 fair and square, but well, good job Ice Frog.

PS: I didn't hate Ice Frog, I barely know him and I donno he's the one fuck up dota until recently told by Astaroth. Thanks for telling me that IF did the changelog after 6.12b, I always knew something was wrong when they completely rework visage to rubbish cause that is not previous changelog style.

Thanks for the information though I can more or less predicted it cause i followed countless changelog between 5.84c to 6.12b. In every new changelog I think more and more hero become stronger and usable, but that is not the case after 6.12b. I always thought IF did all the changelog from 5.84c onward.

PPS: It is funny because I can't seem to think of a reason why Guinsoo is the worst top tier item compare to butterfly and heart if he name the item after himself.

[jeandarc]

Your posts are giving me eyes cancer

[nenad3]

You are fools who support retarded icefrog who ruined dota and just leav, cuz of dota2 game for kids.
I am aggre with this guy LEEKING2005, this dota is ultra unbalanced... visage, chen, brood, rex, winter
... u need to be fkng master to play with that heroes..

[ClaraSchuman]

You are fools who support retarded icefrog who ruined dota and just leav, cuz of dota2 game for kids.
I am aggre with this guy LEEKING2005, this dota is ultra unbalanced... visage, chen, brood, rex, winter
... u need to be fkng master to play with that heroes..

i am the master ? where is problem ?