Another ban mod on a power trip

[NEGERTIVS]

Lol, since you made bold claims indeed I have reread the entire topic looking for any post made by you that was even remotely coherent and proved me wrong on at least one point. I have failed to find even a single one. Perhaps you could point them out to me specifically?

Me and Fnelleh have the same ip because, so so utterly surprisingly, we are brothers. http://stats.playdota.eu/?p=gameinfo&gid=755331 this game should prove it as we played alongside one another. Unfortunately the game had to be remade because of guess what? A leaver.

I have taken excerpts from almost all of your posts and clearly pointed out where you are wrong:

Negertivs dude, HOW IN HELL YOU CAN KNOW THAT HE LEFT ON PURPOSE DURING LOADING??

I cant know. I dont care to know. The rules state "player must not leave". He left. He should at least be warned, as stated in the rules. End of discussion.

So to make this completely clear: I did not know if he left or disced. But it doesnt matter. There is no rule that excuses him. If you say something like "omg but its clear he disced he does not deserve ban/warn" then you are making up new rules, not following the actual rules.

That is why he banned you, and I would ban you myself if someone else reported your for banning like that!

He didnt ban me, he only threatened to ban me. "Player must not leave" is a very specific rule and is very hard to interpret loosely, since the statement is so definite. "Abusing ban command is not allowed" however is a lot more open to interpretation. If you ban me for banning someone who is guilty of breaking a rule, well maybe you should consider that the "warn" clause is a tiny footnote somewhere at the bottom of the rules in an utterly unreadable table. Its funny how you are so very lenient with a mod who has clearly broken a rule, yet are completely ready to ban me for doing nothing but trying to follow the rules!

You abused ban command cause ONCE AGAIN YOU CAN NOT BE SURE THAT HE LEFT ON PURPOSE OR HE HAD CONNECTION PROBLEMS!

That he broke the "player must not leave" rule is a simple fact. There is no clause anywhere which excuses people for lagging out. Should I have somehow guessed, smelled, or felt in the water of my left knee that there is a lenient policy towards laggers here? I cant be arsed to read every precedent set in the (un)ban request section. Its just laughable that you want to ban me for something that I cannot possibly have known.

1) Player night_must_fall has LEFT THE GAME


What game, are you so dumb to understand that he did not left game, cause the game did not even started, he lagged out/ lost connection/ dropped during loading, and you banned him without knowing the reason why he dropped during loading

Here you are grasping at a miniscule detail and interpret it in a wrong way. Leaving means either disconnecting, plugging, clicking the "quit button", ALT-F4 or just plainly pulling the power cord out of the computer. Whichever method one chooses, the game will always say: "randomnick has LEFT THE GAME". The rules state: Player must not leave. Whether this offense is punished by a ban or a warn, he has still broken this rule.

@Negertivs.If you give me the link of the game, and if he left game in 4 min, 5 min, 10 min, then you could call it abuse, BUT IF HE LEFT NOT IF HE GOT HIGH PING AND LOST CONNECTION!

I seriously can not understand this. It does not make sense on any level.

Once again, I think I was clear: I would ban you myself if someone else reports you for that, and HE DID NOT I REPEAT DID NOT ABUSED HIS MOD STATS!

Here you have made a completely arbitrary decision without providing any motivation. Did you flip a coin? Kick the cat and watched which way it jumped? I dunno. I think it's pretty clear to just about everyone who is not a mod and has a shred of common sense that happily strolling into a lobby and threatening to ban someone is abuse of power. Since analogies seem to work so well with you people: Should a judge, who is being accused in a case, threaten another judge with a random conviction? I dont think so. Oh and for unbanning himself: should a judge, who has been convicted by another judge, take his own appeal and simply drop all charges? I dont think so either!

ONCE AGAIN HE DID NOT LEFT GAME CAUSE GAME DID NOT STARTED DO I NEED TO DRAW THAT FOR BOTH OF YOU!

Nowhere is this in the rules, so again it comes down to common sense. I will answer this one with quotes from Aliradicali and Domagoj:

Domagoj: "We must have a different vision on when the game starts. As far as im concerned the game starts with the loading screen, because 10+ minutes have been spent waiting for players,checking,spoofing and so on and there are people who will leave the game while loading for i dont know what reason."

AliRadicali: "When exactly does the game count as started? The rules don't mention it, but common sense dictates that the game has begun as soon as the lobby countdown ends. Why?
First of all, look at the countdown message: "Game starting in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0" Seems pretty obvious right?"

Well for me game starts when you type mode or when first creeps spawn! <--- but again mybe it s only me i dont know!

Why? For the love of God why?? You are already ingame, connected and commited to following the ingame rules before the creeps spawn. There are even kills made before the creeps spawn! This is again an utterly arbitrary decision which makes no sense whatsoever.


So you have disproved me on exactly zero points. You have made random and arbitrary decisions, especially the "he did not abuse his mod powers" was painful indeed, since it appeared you made this decision not based on common sense or ethics but rather on safeguarding the untouchability of the mods and if I may add, a condescending predisposition.

I will conclude by laying out some of the effects of giving night_must_fall at least a warn, and then you can decide whether these effects will have a beneficial effect on this community and it's relation with the mods.

- By showing that mods are also subject to rules, you will curb the power of the mods by setting a precedent. This will make them think twice about power abuse since now both the mods and the community know this can be successfully reported.

- This "investment" will in turn generate a significant boost in the trust and respect this community gives the mods as well as the rules, which will allow it to function better and help avoid putting the mods in such bad daylight as they have put themselves in this topic.

Your choice really, personally Id consider it a sound investment.

[Sl0wMotion]

Wow, night - terrorist, IOI , Well dear players You must understand that admins are ordinary people, with ordinary problems, one of this problems is connection . Night warned you that rage banning people is bannable - Bad host - power abuse . Just more tolerance, and all will be fine, someone lock this up !

ADMINS are humans ? no way ! I thought they were 3 eyed yellow cyborgs sent from the future to ban us humans for no reason. u learn something new every day

[mrNiceguy]

Dude find me ONE JUST ONE sentence in my posts where i flamed you (once again "you need medical assistance" is not flame it is advise ), and I will deeply appologise to you!

I have tryed 3 mybe 4 times to explain u the things, and yet u did not understand them, so i will make it like this:

Read what polska32 have wrote above, and if that is not clear for you, than I rly dont know how to help you!

Have a good night!

[NEGERTIVS]

@mrniceguy: You never flamed me, I have never said that you flamed me specifically. Though you did call people "dumb" a few times. Not the smartest move as a mod. Though I dont remember who these remarks were regarding, and it's pretty irrelevant anyway. Recommending that someone who is trying to make a valid point should get medical help is just a retarded reply and not befitting the status of a mod, and I think you know that damn well. I do not require an apology from you, since you never flamed me. At least you seem to be a mod with good intentions.

It's interesting though how I have gone through significant measures to indicate where you are wrong, and have (in my humble opinion) succeeded, yet you ignore all my points!

You said "I have tryed 3 mybe 4 times to explain u the things, and yet u did not understand them" in your post right after mine.
Dude, I have just taken excerpts from nearly all of your posts and pointed out that you are not right! How can you ignore that?

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@polska: Thanks for the apology but it was not needed! You did nothing wrong, you read my post and thought a mod was being wronged, and acted accordingly, I can understand that ofcourse.

Though I understand your point regarding ingame self-unbans, I do not agree. This bot belongs to the head admins who pay for it. Nowhere in the "mod recruiting" post was stated that one has to pay for the bot, so it should not count as theirs. The head admins give them certain rights to help run it, that is all. Giving a certain group of people (nearly) unlimited power has not worked out well, just take a look at history. I think the community deserves to know what is going on, so I have decided to make this a public report. At least then if the mods dismissed this case for no reason (because yes, they have that power) at least the community would know their true colors. And I think some of them have certainly shown their true colors in this thread.

I'm not some "random pubbie telling you guys what to do". Im a "random pubbie who comes with a valid complaint and who is proven right by the rules", rules which you yourselves decided to formulate and apply to ban issues. Again, instead of proving me wrong or admitting that Im right, most of this thread has been dedicated to offtopic flaming and attempts to discredit me, most of which was posted by the mods. Why dont you ask them which direction this 7 page thread is taking?

What you as community leaders should understand is that you are just a part of a larger community. If the English Premier League would give referees absolute rule so that they could threaten every player with a red card for no valid reason, they would rapidly lose credibility in europe. Just as much as the Premier League is affected by its reputation, so is PD.eu. Most dota players I socialize with have told me such things as "oh yes PD.eu is great fun. Bottom of the barrel. Tards exclusively. Biggest noobs youll ever see, and retarded mods. If you want to see treads, refresher orb tinkers then you should totally play there!"

I hope you are not offended by this statement as it is not mine. I just hope that you can see that by making rediculous decisions and not following rules as mods, you are not contributing to the image of PD.eu's community. You're only making it worse. A community which I really enjoy playing in, might I add. If these issues are not rectified in the near future I foresee only a bigger downfall in PD.eu's "street cred". Sure you might still be growing, and growing fast perhaps, I do not know. But since every decent player will be staying away from PD.eu, you will only attract total tards and enormous pubnoobs ("wait till I get my eaglehorn!"). Is that your goal, as a community? I cannot imagine.

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@Sl0wMotion: I have never claimed that mods should be god-like creatures who never make a mistake. Not once. Imo Im not asking for much, just three simple points:

- their english should be understandable
- they should know and properly apply the rules
- they should be polite and impartial

As you will no doubt have seen in this thread, a significant number of the mods does not meet even these modest standards. Furthermore I am annoyed with the attitude some of these mods have taken towards me, doing nothing more than posting a valid complaint. I never asked them to be some god-like entity, but perhaps some of them are viewing themselves in such a way. A few have called me a "nobody" and a "rage-nerd" even though I have been perfectly polite and correct in my argumentation. I call that a superiority complex and yes, that is offending and not befitting a mod. Especially since some of them seem  not to possess adequate English skills and to possess intelligence of a questionable level.

[ArizaelCZ]

1st If you are looking for justice start at yourself. My bets you will also end there.

2nd If you have nothing to do, realize its just game. You realy do not know those evil corrupted people who are spending hours of their life to make this server running smoothly. Go out find yourself a gf, go whine to some politicians ( at least you are paying those), or simply go take a deep of fresh breath.

3rd I will quote fawkz: " You are always welcomed to take your money back and leave."

[NEGERTIVS]

1) Does not make sense and completely irrelevant to the topic. Dismissed!
2) It's not just a game. It's a community. Apparently you fail to see that. Oh and I have a girlfriend.
Again, irrelevant to the topic, and might I add utterly retarded. Dismissed!
3) Then Fawkz can go fudge himself for all I care, I have come here with a valid complaint in accordance with the rules that the owners of the bot themselves have established here. Again irrelevant to the topic and also retarded. Dismissed!

You seem to be deflecting the actual issue by groping at generic flames, such as 1) "omg look in mirror nubb" 2) "it just gaem nubb go get gf loser" and 3) "u no liek god admins u go awai lawrlz", something the mods tried in pages 1-5. If they did not succeed, why would an obvious pubbie retard like yourself?

You have added nothing to this discussion. Kindly go away, nobody will miss you, I assure you!

Now can we PLEASE get ON TOPIC?

EDIT: My patience is growing increasingly thin. If you do not have anything significant to contribute, just stay away, it will save you a good deal of flames, as well as save this topic a couple of useless pages.

[ArizaelCZ]

While your literal skills are quite high its your IQ level which needs an ,significant, improvement.

explanation (you obviously need it)

1st - you abused !banlast command. (Yes you did. You can call me retard as you wish but you simply did as the majority of admins agreed on it.) Therefore if you are trying to find justice here you should start asking yourself: "Should I ban the guy?" resulting to the obvious, and only solution - You are the idiot who did wrong here.

2nd - In relevance to the point 1 you are spamming the forum here because some admin didnt like you abusing. Conclusion : You have nothing to do in your free time! I gave you simply friendly advices how to spend your time in better way.

3rd - I am pretty sure that he has the same opinion about you. The problem is that he owns this server - and NO you didnt come with VALID complaint. If you cant see that read the point 1 again.

Summary: Yes look in mirror nubb. It IS just game. My condolences to your gf and best wishes  - she needs a nerves of steel. Since nobody seems to agree with you here, its not the admins who failed to prove their point.

[[Shady] Polska]

negertivs Thx for the reply, we have grown quite rapidly in the couple of months, which has caused tensions in areas there should not be. You are right that people should understand the mod position more. As the new system comes out many changes will be seen, in every aspect of the community. Arizael was not trying to be rude to you, i think he was talking to all of us. The real picture is that yes banning unbanning and rules are extremley complicated and hypocritical. Let me ensure you that you will see change ( I feel like obama haha) and from there we will strive for excellence.

If you have any concerns about anything else I always have open hears for new ideas.

[NEGERTIVS]

While your literal skills are quite high its your IQ level which needs an ,significant, improvement.

explanation (you obviously need it)

1st - you abused !banlast command. (Yes you did. You can call me retard as you wish but you simply did as the majority of admins agreed on it.) Therefore if you are trying to find justice here you should start asking yourself: "Should I ban the guy?" resulting to the obvious, and only solution - You are the idiot who did wrong here.

2nd - In relevance to the point 1 you are spamming the forum here because some admin didnt like you abusing. Conclusion : You have nothing to do in your free time! I gave you simply friendly advices how to spend your time in better way.

3rd - I am pretty sure that he has the same opinion about you. The problem is that he owns this server - and NO you didnt come with VALID complaint. If you cant see that read the point 1 again.

Summary: Yes look in mirror nubb. It IS just game. My condolences to your gf and best wishes  - she needs a nerves of steel. Since nobody seems to agree with you here, its not the admins who failed to prove their point.

Read the rules and the contents of this thread. I will not repeat myself again, I have done so several times already. If you cannot at least reply to my arguments instead of generating completely general, non-specific slandering then please just GTFO. We really do not need you here.

I hope the rest of you noticed his retarded set of faulty ad-hominem arguments. If the mods disagree with me it does in no sense mean that I am wrong, since they have been unable to point that out. Should I get banned because the mod agree that I looked at them the wrong way? LMAO. Perhaps you really think they are gods? I have nothing to do in my free time? I play DotA in my free time, amongst other things. Surely this is something most of us in this community share. Insulting my relationship does absolutely nothing to prove me wrong. You have merely stated that I am wrong, without providing any kind of legit argumentation whatsoever. Any complete idiot could do this, so I am just going to assume that you are one. Goodbye.

[NEGERTIVS]

@ polska: excellent! Just what I have been longing to hear. Im very curious about the new rules and hope they will be a huge improvement for the community, whatever the contents.

Now to finally get back on topic: Still no warn for night_must_fall, and still no apology or punishment for his power abuse (which I consider proven by now as the head ban mod mysteriously ignored the arguments in my latest post).

[0uts1d3r]

am time for some off topic this isnt politics its dota <_<

[0uts1d3r]

[iNK]

There will not be an apology for his "abuse", nor will a punishement be handed. Bans and warns are mainly moderators decision and as you can see many have already exhaustively posted their opinion. Also, there isn't anything, as the newer rules stand now, on this topic. There is an existing rule that abusive mods will first get a warn, and if abuse continues, she/he may be demoted, but as we have said this is not the case.  If you have a suggestion, feedback thread is still there.

[mrNiceguy]

Negertivs, ok I will try to be clear as much as i can now!

From my point of view I dont think he abused mod powers! You say he did not banned you he only "threath" you!

Well he only said "You know you can be banned for that" and he was right about that, you could, but you did not!

Now, if you are trying to collect some points, or if you think we will demote someone just because he said " you could be banned for that" you are wrong, cause we wont do that!

Polska responded you in way as I should respond if I had more time to post, I was only trying to give you myne perspective of that situation, and I was trying to be short but I see I was wrong with short posts!

Btw, if i call you dumb I am deeply sorry for that and I hope you will except my appologie!

We will try to do our best to implement best proposals in future rules, and we will try to do our best to give you satisfaction of playing dota without any worries about someone abusing his rights, or banning someone without decent reason!

Honest regards, and ty for you post and your proposals!

[AliRadicali]

Christ. PD.EU mods, I think it's time for a crash course in argumentation!

In a discussion, one is supposed to defend one's opinion with arguments. Just making a statement with no justification does not count as solid reasoning. Justifying one's opinion with invalid arguments (fallacies) only weakens your position. Blatantly ignoring your opponents' arguments to mindlessly repeat your own statements with no/fallacious argumentation is not how you're supposed to win an debate.


Boldly claiming to be right "I DID PROVEN YOU WRONG, OMGGGG" even though your argumentation is based on an advanced superiority complex and a distinct lack of cognitive reasoning makes you look like a bit of an idiot.
If anyone seriously wants to debate this, try DISPROVING the many, many arguments put forth by NEGERTIVS and myself, instead of dumbly claiming to be right. Because mods, so far you've only shown us how terrible your debating skills are, not that you're right.