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Strategy Discussion Section => DotA Discussion => Topic started by: territory23 on January 12, 2021, 21:27

Title: Unbalanced games
Post by: territory23 on January 12, 2021, 21:27
Hello everyone,

I was thinking the main purpose behind sanctions. It was all about ensuring the good game and punishing players for inappropriate behaviour.

For example if someone leaves the game on purpose, he gets a ban instantly. If someone ruins game, again he gets a ban. Generally, If someone prevents others to have good game, there is a sanction.

What about unbalanced games?  After PSR reset we all played unbalanced games but that is not my concern. I am talking about stacking.

Like the player we all know, said "stacking is not against rules". Yes but why? Stacking also ruins the game isn't it? People leave games, people stay afk, people start to feed on purpose in unbalanced games. What worse thing is, people SHOULD play to feed in games like these because if they stay afk they are banned.

You can say, you do not have to join unbalanced games. Why would someone have to check game balance?

Think of this, nobody has to check if a player is leaver (because you cant see it in lobby), nobody has to check if a player only plays in AP games and joined SD, etc. These are all affecting the game quality and you can not check it easily. Then why you should check if the game is really balanced or not?

I think there should be a sanction for stackers, and delete the unbalanced game logs affecting KDA stats and PSR.  It also includes stacking with pro players that has low PSR due to low number of games played. Otherwise, we can not stop having games with score like 50-10, 36-4 etc.

I am just offering some rules, please do not hesitate to offer yours.

Please, just think of this as a measurement to prevent bad games just like other rules.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: kna on January 12, 2021, 22:31
Yea , they release one more clown .....
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: dumb0 on January 12, 2021, 22:37
u can allways leave the lobby if u dont like how the game is balanced,thats how it works and its the best way imo.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: cen on January 13, 2021, 09:16
We are already discussing internally some ideas how to discourage stacking but we don't know yet what will be done. Any ideas are welcome.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: AntlermanXXL on January 13, 2021, 09:29
Yes, let`s discourage stacking in a team game, instead of promoting teaming up for everyone
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Confused-o_O- on January 13, 2021, 10:22
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: begin on January 13, 2021, 12:34
I think stacking should also be banned at The International
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: cen on January 13, 2021, 17:19
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
1 and 2 are mostly the same thing. Primarily we want to discourage 3 while still somewhat allowing 1/2. Lowering PSR gain for unbalanced games would be one such solution. More ideas are needed.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: grga_man on January 13, 2021, 17:31
Yes, let`s discourage stacking in a team game, instead of promoting teaming up for everyone

I agree about this!
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Confused-o_O- on January 13, 2021, 18:04
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
1 and 2 are mostly the same thing. Primarily we want to discourage 3 while still somewhat allowing 1/2. Lowering PSR gain for unbalanced games would be one such solution. More ideas are needed.

you could remove the ability for the game host to swap players and !start command would auto-balance teams. Give out rights to swap players/teams manually based on the request system. Remove rights if they abuse them.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: TooShade on January 13, 2021, 19:15
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Corristo on January 14, 2021, 07:17
Lol tooshade giving advices on this topic is like asking a hard drinker about alcoholic problems. :D
You are on of the biggest stackers on this server abusing this shit for even 1 psr point.

Cen an idea for the problem: for games with ratio lets say above 65% vs 35%. The team with 65% shouldnt get any psr. Can be 70-80%, whatever you see fit.make them only loosr psr but not win any. They will stop doing this straight away.no gain no stackin.

Or 2nd idea: the psr system should punish this ratio much harder. Instead of loosing 1-2-3 psr they should loose 10-20-30 when 70-80-90 ratio and so on.so they have a super increased risk for winning 1 psr. Also increase the winning psr size for the other team. You choose the numbers ofc, i just gave the idea to punish and reward more both teams in case of unbalanced games.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Confused-o_O- on January 14, 2021, 07:21
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.

the guy trying to talk about game balance...

https://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6354374

maybe he is active and plays a lot, but the number of players you are losing/lost for trash players like him. They are not community members unless your community is based on preying on new players to feel better about your self. Why players like this are not banned?
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: dumb0 on January 14, 2021, 10:03
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.
that can work only if we remove psr system or we make it static and not proggresive,lets say for wins +3 and for loses -2.
also that is not even a balance,its just a lucky shuffle like it is now.
my suggestion was to make balance based on the k/d ratio (to start at min 5 or 10 games,before that to have it 0)
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Corristo on January 14, 2021, 10:35
that can work only if we remove psr system or we make it static and not proggresive,lets say for wins +3 and for loses -2.
also that is not even a balance,its just a lucky shuffle like it is now.
my suggestion was to make balance based on the k/d ratio (to start at min 5 or 10 games,before that to have it 0)
[/quote]

I would add to this the assist stats too. some players can farm all game, then win lategame having 10+ kills suddenly and 0 deaths, while letting down their team for 30 minutes.
So this is a viable option in my opinion too. Delete PSR system as it is, and introduce KDA system, based on the players SD rather than some points what you got from ''being in the better team''.
This way you would balance the games based on the players skills rather than some points which don't show any value.

Or if you want to keep the PSR system, so we can call a winner of the season and have a kind of ranking. But modify the !balance comand, so it uses the KDA stats not the PSR of each players.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: cen on January 14, 2021, 12:05
Maybe I can try some simple KDA balance formula like goodnes=K-D+A/2 and we turn it on for a few days and see what happens.

But that is a slightly different topic, we are talking about !balance not being used at all for now.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Arthas on January 14, 2021, 14:47
i didnt stack before but i think stackers games are chalengeing and in someway fun...it helps develop playing skills when players adapt their games .....the  problem is its not balanced because there are few stackers .....many stackers or noone  are 2 perfect conditions...instead of discourage stack encourage it .....5sackers vs 5stackers might be good games

fixed teams that assigned in the server like accounts who get advantages when playing together ...2 of 1 team amount of advantage ...3 of the same team higher advantage....and so on till 5 of same team or clan since its the same i think

anyone can start a team on his own join games...win and lose ...he gets psr which is less when he is alone ...and ranking goes to the team with high psr combined.


we should let the stackers stack ...we all feel good when defeating stacker team ...specially when they are good


Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: cen on January 14, 2021, 15:54
Please lets keep on topic and not go into personal stuff, it adds nothing to the debate. Otherwise I will start deleting posts.

@Arthas I think that is good idea and worth thinking about. So instead of punishing we reward. It is just harder to implement. I guess you would !queue for a "high PSR" game and that game would be force balanced. Sounds correct?
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: AntlermanXXL on January 14, 2021, 16:22
International cyber cup server has an example of how can it be done: they have 'team balance' fake mode, '-tb', as an addition to normal modes

With this mode it is impossible to manually change slots, they are autobalanced when game starts

But since on lagabuse it is possible to change current game mode anytime, also there are some !hcl technical limitations, it is quite a challenge to make 100% similar mechanic

Instead, this 'team balance' could be set before game starts, for example, by a new command, like '!pubt' (or something more semantically readable)
So this lobby will stay autobalanced, while normally '!pub'-ed games can be manually balanced

But it brings some kind of hell, since we already have pub-command separation, for two versions of map, so with my suggestion it would be solid four commands for players to remember.

Maybe it could be some argument to existing commands, like !pub tb SUBSCRIBE_TO_THE_DEER_RADIO_[GAME_NAME_HERE]

my epic lobby stats feature when
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: TooShade on January 14, 2021, 16:28
I think lobbies should be hosted by a bot, not created by an "human player".

With this it means, we will have 10 public players, not 9 + 1(which is host), and a system that auto-balances the game randomly or always based on PSR.. K/D... what you wish, and an auto-start game without using host commands. In this way, which is a suggesiton, we will avoid, "stacks", playing with friends, and random players in our team.

The difference human hosts, choose the team, lock players and do 90% of the job for start game, while putting a bot host it will do it automatically, automatic balance + automatic starting, so noone will blame about stack and other things. Blaming bot you will say? It's stupid, but better way.

 
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: iErnesto94 on January 14, 2021, 19:24
In my opinion, adding a rule that excessive stacking is bannable is enough. Some clarifications will be added on what is considered excessive stacking and then players can easily post a ban request providing evidence on how the host is repetitively stacking (3 links of stacked games last week etc).
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: AntlermanXXL on January 14, 2021, 20:33
In my opinion, adding a rule that excessive stacking is bannable is enough. Some clarifications will be added on what is considered excessive stacking and then players can easily post a ban request providing evidence on how the host is repetitively stacking (3 links of stacked games last week etc).
Efko, forgot your password?
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: iErnesto94 on January 14, 2021, 20:45
In my opinion, adding a rule that excessive stacking is bannable is enough. Some clarifications will be added on what is considered excessive stacking and then players can easily post a ban request providing evidence on how the host is repetitively stacking (3 links of stacked games last week etc).
Efko, forgot your password?
What?
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Shark4K on January 14, 2021, 22:30
In my opinion,

I suggest to make a bot/system create hosts and leave players to choose play in custom host unbalance or balance

%80 ppls likes balance By bot/system.
%20 teams and friends should have a option to host games not balance

In my opinion, adding a rule that excessive stacking is bannable is enough. Some clarifications will be added on what is considered excessive stacking and then players can easily post a ban request providing evidence on how the host is repetitively stacking (3 links of stacked games last week etc).
Hard rule for LA Players also they will abuse reports and spam
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: ilikedat on January 14, 2021, 23:26
So all started because someone came and said we must do something about stacking so the games can be more balanced. Now we must ask ourselfes is that really a problem and in my opinion its not. I rarely meet stacks and friends in my games and even if i do i decide whether i wanna play on that game or not and the “problem” is solved.
Now if we are going to talk about game balance we all know that game is balanced based on the players current psr and not based on their skills so yeah that can bring some unbalanced games since that not every high psr player is good enough. So i guess we must give a try to code the balance based on the players kd ratio like Cen mentioned but that brings another ploblem cuz i dont think the system is capable to balance with psr & kd tog so would have to make a static one to give an ammount for the wins and one for the loses.
I also like the autohosting games with the autobalance added just because with that we avoid stacks and hosts not being able to be kicked if he ruins the game.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: MarvinJunior on January 15, 2021, 00:10
funny how you all just walked into the trap

@territory23 well done, you finally did it

Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Akuma on January 15, 2021, 01:28
funny how you all just walked into the trap

@territory23 well done, you finally did it

This makes sense.

I have no idea why is this even being discussed, while everyone has the ability to host a game and play a game the way they like it.

BUT ALSO

 
Quote
Maybe it could be some argument to existing commands, like !pub tb SUBSCRIBE_TO_THE_DEER_RADIO_[GAME_NAME_HERE]

I'd love to see this because it would confuse efko so much and it will be hilarious again!

Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: territory23 on January 15, 2021, 02:46
In my opinion, adding a rule that excessive stacking is bannable is enough. Some clarifications will be added on what is considered excessive stacking and then players can easily post a ban request providing evidence on how the host is repetitively stacking (3 links of stacked games last week etc).
I think our concern is having good games at all times. For example, AFKers get banned directly after kickafk command. Considering stacking causes unbalanced games, I think giving 2 more chances to stackers encourage them.

On the other hand, I agree that not all stacking causes bad games. 2 friends lock each other if they are average, or 2 good players can also lock each other if the other team is pro as well.

@MarvinJunior , It is not a trap. I think I am an average player and I am trying to discuss one problem that average players have. If you have any solution, please feel free to share. I can understand that players are free to leave lobby but as I mentioned in my original post, considering all the sanctions we have, I can say we are here to play good game. So, leaving "bad" games is not a solution for everyone.

Thank you everyone for your contribution.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Corristo on January 15, 2021, 07:12
So all started because someone came and said we must do something about stacking so the games can be more balanced. Now we must ask ourselfes is that really a problem and in my opinion its not. I rarely meet stacks and friends in my games and even if i do i decide whether i wanna play on that game or not and the “problem” is solved.
Now if we are going to talk about game balance we all know that game is balanced based on the players current psr and not based on their skills so yeah that can bring some unbalanced games since that not every high psr player is good enough. So i guess we must give a try to code the balance based on the players kd ratio like Cen mentioned but that brings another ploblem cuz i dont think the system is capable to balance with psr & kd tog so would have to make a static one to give an ammount for the wins and one for the loses.
I also like the autohosting games with the autobalance added just because with that we avoid stacks and hosts not being able to be kicked if he ruins the game.

Probably you are playing v7 mostly, im not sure.There stacking might be less present than in v6, where this is more common. Of course we can always leave a stacking (or any other) lobby we don't like, but since v7 was introduced, the waiting time in lobbies increased double or triple. So a lot of players(including myself) are just entering a lobby, and then go alt-tab watching some video or movie until the game starts. THen you tab-back, and see yourself in a weaker team while the stacking host made himself a nice team against you. Now this can be challenging for the beginning as someone mentioned before, but when you are playing this 50% of your games, it gets boring and frustrating.
Stack vs Stack is oke, we do that from time to time too, and it's really fun.But this is like 20% of those type of games. The rest of stacking games are hosted by abusive hosts, who would sell their mothers for 1 psr.

What I do like about your post is the question: really why the HOST of a game can't be votekicked?@cen
I never understood this.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: hsakuragi on January 16, 2021, 11:46
you can change start system
after everyone type !start (like votekick) game automatically start,
So everyone plays the game they agree to play.
+bot automatically announces average  psr every time a !start is written
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: iErnesto94 on January 16, 2021, 13:58
When host presses !start, the alt tabbed players will receive the message 'game starting' and they will have 15 sec to check lobby and decide if they want to leave or not.
Thus when u are tabbed you wont have to worry about stacking.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: Corristo on January 17, 2021, 10:09
When host presses !start, the alt tabbed players will receive the message 'game starting' and they will have 15 sec to check lobby and decide if they want to leave or not.
Thus when u are tabbed you wont have to worry about stacking.

So far this is the laziest idea. Basically you suggest to give +5 seconds on the existing 10 on the countdown, to tab back, use comands to check for locked players and SD the players you are with/or against in the lobby.
This sounds like the american pandemic boost of 600$ meme: I give you +5 to fuck off :D

So still not a viable solution for: 1) stacking host/stacked games, 2) No improovement for a more realistic !balance comand, 3) No change to a more rewarding/punishing PSR system.

Fixing these 3, or some of them would ultimately lead to more balanced games. At least if this is what you want. If you are too lazy to modify anything just close the topic and tell us to fuck off :D
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: cen on January 17, 2021, 12:58
We already have the "game starting sound", but it plays when loading screen comes up.  :)
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: grga_man on January 17, 2021, 16:12
We already have the "game starting sound", but it plays when loading screen comes up.  :)

What ernesto tried to say, he wants to make "game is full" sound, so players can join being alt tabed and check stats of other players.
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: tehnika8x8 on January 18, 2021, 03:08
I understand that the New Year was almost and that some of you are still holding that euphoria,
but Cen's isn't Santa Claus to fulfill all your wishes. You have become too spoiled...

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfrM0HqH/xo-xo-xo.jpg)
xo,xo,xo
unbalanced big and small brains
Title: Re: Unbalanced games
Post by: bookeyize on January 18, 2021, 18:13
I started working up to catch as much as possible balanced games and better games by hosting it from myself and listening the sugestions and advice from players generally and not stacking any1 just make it as much as possible balanced from my own dota1 exp about players on the server, the main problem about this is "I cant host every game" (no matter i m everywhereize mostly), and I m actually too lazy to host very  often... So the point is ppl needs to change and be realistic, but since they refuse even new update of 7.00,I dont see how that can happen, stills i will try as much as I can to make better and more quality games. My regards.