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General Section => General Discussions => Topic started by: cen on September 30, 2019, 16:30

Title: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on September 30, 2019, 16:30
Changes are the following..

If player's rating (PSR) is lower than his team's average:
- in case of victory player gains more PSR
- in case of defeat player loses less PSR

If player's rating (PSR) is higher than his team's average:
- in case of victory player gains less PSR
- in case of defeat player loses more PSR

In equally balanced games you gain same amount as PSR as you lose.

Positive and negative feedback is welcome. Also let us know if you see any anomalies in PSR gain/lose and !rall anomalies.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: beastiary on September 30, 2019, 16:48
finalee
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: [Dis]Kealthas on September 30, 2019, 18:30
it is so bad for me i always gain +1 but lose -5 when i lose
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Jimmy on September 30, 2019, 18:43
it is so bad for me i always gain +1 but lose -5 when i lose
It would seem that Highly Ranked players will suffer more from it.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: nikolagay on September 30, 2019, 18:48
I don't know how dedicated people are when it comes to trolling, this system allows people to snipe high ranked players with average Joe accounts. I used to do that on some communities, it's not fun for top 10 players at all...
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: begin on September 30, 2019, 18:55
I don't know how dedicated people are when it comes to trolling, this system allows people to snipe high ranked players with average Joe accounts. I used to do that on some communities, it's not fun for top 10 players at all...
But it is fun for the other 35000 players playing here
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on September 30, 2019, 19:09
Notice: stats are saved in db with old formula still. It just means what you see in game is new stuff but stats page saves old stuff. Working on a fix.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: jeandarc on September 30, 2019, 19:39
top 10 players on suicide watch

(https://media.giphy.com/media/32mC2kXYWCsg0/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: ClaraSchuman on September 30, 2019, 20:22
 ;D
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on September 30, 2019, 20:40
This is a mid season adjustment so it's not ideal due to bigger differences already present. We will watch closely and can also revert until the next season if necessary.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: No_LiFeR_xD on September 30, 2019, 21:28
Nice changes but there will be some discrimination for TOP players ...
But okej ..
For me that's new challenge .. :)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: begin on September 30, 2019, 21:38
Nice changes but there will be some discrimination for TOP players ...
But okej ..
For me that's new challenge .. :)

it doesn´t concern u then
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on October 01, 2019, 20:30
Guard bug fixed, stats are now correctly saved by new formula
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: iErnesto94 on October 03, 2019, 21:06
 :/: :/:
1. It decreases the range (variety) of psr. Top players will earn psr slower and bottom players will earn psr faster. Less players 1700+ and 1500-, most 1550-1650

2. Very unfair for top players. It was already hard to earn psr after a point, now its drastically more difficult. As a result most top players will reach a pooint where they wont get psr and there will be no progress. Super boring if you are stack in 1750 for 2 months always +2/-5 cause u need to have at least 72% win ratio in order to earn psr.

3. If you want to play early in the morning (me) when all players 1400-1500  it is +1/-4, +1/-5,  so u need over 75% win ratio. As a result you end up loosing psr. The only solution is to change account if you want to play in the morning which is very annoying. The system already forced me to en up loosing psr when very low games but now its drastically harder.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on October 03, 2019, 23:21
:/: :/:
1. It decreases the range (variety) of psr. Top players will earn psr slower and bottom players will earn psr faster. Less players 1700+ and 1500-, most 1550-1650

2. Very unfair for top players. It was already hard to earn psr after a point, now its drastically more difficult. As a result most top players will reach a pooint where they wont get psr and there will be no progress. Super boring if you are stack in 1750 for 2 months always +2/-5 cause u need to have at least 72% win ratio in order to earn psr.

3. If you want to play early in the morning (me) when all players 1400-1500  it is +1/-4, +1/-5,  so u need over 75% win ratio. As a result you end up loosing psr. The only solution is to change account if you want to play in the morning which is very annoying. The system already forced me to en up loosing psr when very low games but now its drastically harder.
#1 is probably a good thing, but after new season.

I partially agree with you on #2 and #3. I was having an idea a few days ago to cap all +1/+2 losses to match the gains (so max you can lose in +1 and +2 is -1 and -2). Or, alternatively, to cap the ratio of win/lose at low gains at max x2 (loss can't be more than 2 of gain). But this would have to be debated first and new season might eliminate this problem alltogther.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Happy.. on October 03, 2019, 23:43
Why don't you simply put +5/-5 for every win/lose, regardless of the PSR you have at that moment?
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on October 04, 2019, 00:17
Why don't you simply put +5/-5 for every win/lose, regardless of the PSR you have at that moment?
To prevent stacking.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on October 04, 2019, 17:03
:/: :/:
1. It decreases the range (variety) of psr. Top players will earn psr slower and bottom players will earn psr faster. Less players 1700+ and 1500-, most 1550-1650

2. Very unfair for top players. It was already hard to earn psr after a point, now its drastically more difficult. As a result most top players will reach a pooint where they wont get psr and there will be no progress. Super boring if you are stack in 1750 for 2 months always +2/-5 cause u need to have at least 72% win ratio in order to earn psr.

3. If you want to play early in the morning (me) when all players 1400-1500  it is +1/-4, +1/-5,  so u need over 75% win ratio. As a result you end up loosing psr. The only solution is to change account if you want to play in the morning which is very annoying. The system already forced me to en up loosing psr when very low games but now its drastically harder.

Very nice analysis

1. I think that decreasing the dispersion will lead to more balanced games, so that it will be closer to 50% - 50% while respecting players skills

2. It seems only fair that when high psr player plays with weaker ones, he can potentially lose more psr since he is expected to win the game. Thats pretty much the same way in all ranked games. But i agree that the lose is too high and should be lowered.

3. Due to the lack of players this situation can't be avoided. Even in overwatch when i queue at non prime times im forced to play with players with lower ranking and lose more sr than usual

For me personally the system is good because my psr in dota is close to the median of 1600, so when i play with better players (like when we played last time) i lose less and when i play fair games its always around +7/-7 for me.

Would be useful to hear more constructive opinions of high psr players, lets all help cen make this a better place
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: iErnesto94 on October 05, 2019, 23:06
21 out of the 30 players with top psr have below 66% win ration. So even if its +1/-2  (in a 50-50 balanced game) it means that the are going to gradually loose psr. So they either change account when the other players are not 1600+ or they loose psr 100% in the long run.

In the previous system there was a lot of progress and a relatively good point where most players would hit their limits. By that I mean that eventually you reach a point where u have so high psr so that the rest of your team is super low and your skill is not enough to cover their fails./

Imo if the new system is applied in the new season that limit point will be reached faster and it will ruin some of the fun.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: AGENT on October 05, 2019, 23:18
Imo if the new system is applied in the new season that limit point will be reached faster and it will ruin some of the fun.
But, if you don't care about psr, you can have fun anyway. Get it?
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Happy.. on October 06, 2019, 00:21
How about adding a piece of code to the bot that prevents starting imbalanced games with the deviation of 5% +- from 50%/50% and keep the -5/+5 win/lose PSR gain/deduction at all times? Stacking - prevented.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: .SaLiH. on October 06, 2019, 08:55
Imo if the new system is applied in the new season that limit point will be reached faster and it will ruin some of the fun.
But, if you don't care about psr, you can have fun anyway. Get it?
i get it. hahahaha
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: jeandarc on October 06, 2019, 10:31
How about adding a piece of code to the bot that prevents starting imbalanced games with the deviation of 5% +- from 50%/50% and keep the -5/+5 win/lose PSR gain/deduction at all times? Stacking - prevented.

I actually like the 5% deviation, basically 45% vs 55% or the other way around would be the limit.
About the psr lose/gain, dota 2 used to have +25/-25 points gain no matter with who you matched up against, but recently they also changed to a similar formula as lagabuse, except the top players gain/loss psr isn't +1/-3 but something like +15/-20
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on October 06, 2019, 14:16
How about adding a piece of code to the bot that prevents starting imbalanced games with the deviation of 5% +- from 50%/50% and keep the -5/+5 win/lose PSR gain/deduction at all times? Stacking - prevented.
5% is probably too tight but it's a good idea.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on October 06, 2019, 15:41
Static gain/lose isn't good idea because the dispersion would hit the skies with bad players hitting 0 and good players getting 3000+

Balance restriction is disputable because of stackers who want to play in 5 but wouldn't be able to start game with 80% 20%, for example. Maybe it could be possible to set the restriction based on how many players are locked

High psr players would have lower psr than now but that only means that psr itself would be more valuable since its harder to get. Having a few people with 1900 psr while the 90% have 1550 isn't good, they always get bad players in team and have to smurf. If they had psr closer to the rest, the games quality would be higher at the cost of them risking losing more psr

As for the progress, i suggested an idea about adding experience/level stat, so you would get experience points for each game, depending on how good you played and if it was win or lose. Means that you would have motivation to try even in lost games and still be rewarded. New value in sd and maybe even a cool progress bar in stats page could be added. Maybe some other rewards like achievements or icons could be given when reaching milestones
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: iErnesto94 on October 07, 2019, 03:21
Sentinel avg. PSR: 1574(32% to win), Scourge avg. PSR: 1621(68% to win)
I am in sentinel and its +1/-2. I dont know how could this be a case in a normal system. If the game aint 1650+vs1650+ the psr +/- is very very bad.

Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: grga_man on October 07, 2019, 12:31
Guys can you just chill about this system, cen tried to make it better,  just enjoy playing dota and fuck psr, jeez
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: AntlermanXXL on October 07, 2019, 12:38
Guys can you just chill about this system, cen tried to make it better,  just enjoy playing dota and fuck psr, jeez

I believe its requested feedback; No one blames mister Cen;

Though, for me, its fun and enjoyable to see how people care about their PSR, 'top' players and such stuff
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on October 07, 2019, 15:06
Quote
Sentinel avg. PSR: 1574(32% to win), Scourge avg. PSR: 1621(68% to win)
I am in sentinel and its +1/-2. I dont know how could this be a case in a normal system. If the game aint 1650+vs1650+ the psr +/- is very very bad.

I see the point. I suspect there is a mistake in the formula which needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: 3zz3 on October 07, 2019, 16:07
Why don't you simply put +5/-5 for every win/lose, regardless of the PSR you have at that moment?
To prevent stacking.
y stacking noobs that have 1700 psr for playing whit good playres theying to act good and when they solo they just ruin the games
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: iErnesto94 on October 07, 2019, 20:08
I really cant see how this new system is an improvement.
Since for me psr is a good motivation to play and currently for me getting psr feels a complete nonsense I wont play anymore. I hope you will bring back the old system.

Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on October 08, 2019, 20:25
There are only 2 main directions of how ranking points can be calculated based on myubernick's formula.

1) You have a big amount of imaginary points due to high psr players being protected in "noob games" which means that there is a huge gap between high psr players and average players.

Result: You don't lose much psr in games but you get bad games more frequently due to low psr teammates, a lot of complaints about "i must smurf because i get only noobs in team"

2) High psr players aren't protected and they lose significantly more psr when playing in "noob games".

Result: high psr players cry that they lose a lot of psr and have +1/-5 ratios but the games should be better due to a better distribution of psr. The psr gap doesn't exist.

The formula now is a something between these 2 approaches: high psr players get protected less and lose more psr in "noob games", the gap is still there but barely reachable.

If you ask me, the only way to have fair games is option 2, unless the whole elo system is changed. Of course, there is a PSR CAP for extremely good players depending on the rating median of the league, if you are interested, check about elo systems, it is a typical approach in many other games and is, in my opinion, completely fair.

Switching the formula midseason obviously puts high psr players at disadvantage. The "progress" seems to be negative because of it.

To speak in other words, no matter what the formula is, high psr players will cry either about "getting only noobs in games" (old formula) or "losing too much psr" (new formula). I think that the new formula is better because it should make games more balanced and the only real disadvantage is that some people will have lower imaginary numbers than before (instead of 1900 psr, pros will have around 1750)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on October 08, 2019, 22:10
As mr deer said this is a feedback topic, I will collect all the ideas here (some good already) and then decide how to move forward. Let's set the deadline to the end of this week.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Sejanus on October 11, 2019, 19:14
Changes are the following..

If player's rating (PSR) is lower than his team's average:
- in case of victory player gains more PSR
- in case of defeat player loses less PSR

If player's rating (PSR) is higher than his team's average:
- in case of victory player gains less PSR
- in case of defeat player loses more PSR

In equally balanced games you gain same amount as PSR as you lose.

Positive and negative feedback is welcome. Also let us know if you see any anomalies in PSR gain/lose and !rall anomalies.

Love it, works way better.

Should consider stat reset now.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Happy.. on October 11, 2019, 21:29
Also, you could code in some imaginary currency that's tiding to one's account. Per each win you get 5 PSR + 5 *currency name*. After you collect 100 *currency name* you can trade it for some priviliges like the name color in the channel, in the game or something like that, people seem to like that shit. This way you can add more value to accounts.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Jimmy on October 11, 2019, 22:01
Also, you could code in some imaginary currency that's tiding to one's account. Per each win you get 5 PSR + 5 *currency name*. After you collect 100 *currency name* you can trade it for some priviliges like the name color in the channel, in the game or something like that, people seem to like that shit. This way you can add more value to accounts.
I proposed something similar lately ,sort of.
Collecting 100-300-500 Clean games can be Exchanged for Icons/PSR or some other award.
But we didnt discuss about collecting PSR , since award for that is being the VIP at the end of the Season, getting all the stuff from that [coloured Nickname,Private Chat, Etc].
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: grga_man on October 11, 2019, 22:41
Also, you could code in some imaginary currency that's tiding to one's account. Per each win you get 5 PSR + 5 *currency name*. before you collect 100 *currency name* you can trade it for some priviliges like the name color in the channel, in the game or something like that, people seem to like that shit. This way you can add more value to accounts.

give fairy that colour name already, so he can stop crying today..
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Meth0d on October 12, 2019, 00:24
Also, you could code in some imaginary currency that's tiding to one's account. Per each win you get 5 PSR + 5 *currency name*. before you collect 100 *currency name* you can trade it for some priviliges like the name color in the channel, in the game or something like that, people seem to like that shit. This way you can add more value to accounts.

give fairy that colour name already, so he can stop crying today..

agree.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 03, 2020, 17:15
unsticky please, im not working on this anymore

Also, i would like my visualizing software to be deleted from a certain topic in private area
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: myprecious on February 03, 2020, 18:46
Ohhh nice something new, let's see how that working, but I think it is good change, not sure why ernesto disagree.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 05, 2020, 18:47
As long as anyone with any PSR joins game, there;s no magical PSR formula. You either favor the lower ranked or the higher ranked. There shouldn't be allowed games where top PSR is 1600+ and lowest is 1400- .. those will never be balanced games or PSR worth.

Any formula you'll pick is still abusable: I;m currently with 3 acc in top 15,  and going up. Without stacking or choosing games. B O R I N G

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/408671489978662913/674671467362779176/unknown.png)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 05, 2020, 18:53
A proper balancing formula shouldn;t try to match exact PSR total. PSR_Team 1 = PSR_Team2. Rather it should place each player in a "category level".

Ex.
1600 - 1699 .. is considered 5
1550 - 1599 .. is considered 4
1500 - 1550 .. is considered 3
1450 - 1500 .. is considered 2
< 1400 is considered 1

and then u try to balance those category levels in each team. Ofc presented numbers are to explain the logic, and do not represent the final formula.

PS: the main factor in imbalanced games is the periodical ladder reset and the fact ppl can multiaccount and smurf. There should be no ladder reset, as the current formulas already drag down the top ranks from going too far ahead and it makes easier for new players to climb fast to the mid-section of the ladder.

So rather than changing formula, you should rather prioritize something to make users use only 1 account. Some rewarding system or w/e.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 06, 2020, 03:17
I know, i was testing various options

Problems with new accounts occur in all games, nothing to do about it. After 1 game was played, skill level can be determined to match with appropriate players.

As said main problem here is that there is no automatic matching system. I can make 1 particular game perfectly balanced based on stats and psr but in the long run it destroys the ladder, which was why i decided to not use this approach. High skilled players would be pressured too hard by having to carry bad players since there are not enough of good players around. At the same time they would barely get any psr in case of winning and lose a lot in case of defeat.

If it helps, my closest idea was to equalize win/lose in fair games and reduce lose penalty for low psr players (since if you have 1300 psr its VERY hard to climb up while when you have 1600 you cant go down)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on February 06, 2020, 19:46
New PSR formula will be enabled next season to see how it works on level playing field from the beginning. The only reason we didn't try it out in January already is that I simply forgot due to all the work with season reset.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 06, 2020, 20:23
I said that i stopped working on it but i didn't say that its complete.

You can try to use it on your own risk, but in this formula high psr players are punished way too hard in my opinion (this type of formulas will probably not work here at all due to the lack of high psr players. I estimate the median to be around 1550-1600 with this while people who manage to get above 1700 will be hard punished and quickly lose motivation, unless they like challenges). I think that my and mun's approach should be mixed to have an acceptable result.

Again, i said that this isn't complete and that i'm against using it. If anything goes wrong, please don't put the blame me.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: cen on February 06, 2020, 23:36
It can be easily switched back so no major harm can be done either way.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 07, 2020, 00:41
If you remove my tweak of high psr players punishment and issue a cron job to subtract ~5 psr every week from all players above 1500 (with minimun of 1500) it might deliver the best result
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: 3zz3 on February 08, 2020, 02:37
If you remove my tweak of high psr players punishment and issue a cron job to subtract ~5 psr every week from all players above 1500 (with minimun of 1500) it might deliver the best result
than what are we playing for "fun" id rather quit dota then ;D
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: bewater on February 08, 2020, 11:56
If you could gather better players on one place that would be nice.Maybe make an event once a week at a good day and time which you could stream few games so people would wanna join it, has forum potential also.Or do a 5v5 tour you should be able to gather 4-8 teams if you announce it 2 weeks before and talk with players in the meantime.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 01:04
managed to push all 3 accounts from top15, to top 10 ..
(https://i.imgur.com/KarCBNS.png)
... b o r i n g
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: nikolagay on February 10, 2020, 01:26
managed to push all 3 accounts from top15, to top 10 ..
(https://i.imgur.com/KarCBNS.png)
... b o r i n g

I honestly don't know if I should envy you for having enough free time to do this, or be glad that I have better things to do with my life rather than doing anything remotely similar to this.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: AntlermanXXL on February 10, 2020, 01:27
Why don`t you just start deering, after considering this psr activity boring
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 01:38
Deered heavily in my last 25 kunkka spam games.
That shit op with aghs  25 and octarine. 23wins/3loses (more cancer than luna aghs)
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 01:41
I honestly don't know if I should envy you for having enough free time to do this, or be glad that I have better things to do with my life rather than doing anything remotely similar to this.

Cool story. Yet I`m not the one with 50 AWARDS sitting in my profile. Took me around 150 games total , accumulated on those 3 accounts. More than average but not that much.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: nikolagay on February 10, 2020, 01:53
Cool story. Yet I`m not the one with 50 AWARDS sitting in my profile. Took me around 150 games total , accumulated on those 3 accounts. More than average but not that much.

Maybe I should've picked a different approach, now that I look into it I did sound a bit hostile there, my bad. Am too lazy to go into longer discussions right now.

Let's try to keep it simple. 3 accs, why though?
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 09:58

Maybe I should've picked a different approach, now that I look into it I did sound a bit hostile there, my bad. Am too lazy to go into longer discussions right now.

Let's try to keep it simple. 3 accs, why though?

I already stated previously, few posts above. It's to prove the current PSR formula issues. It's abusable.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: AntlermanXXL on February 10, 2020, 10:03
> That shit op with aghs  25 and octarine. 23wins/3loses (more cancer than luna aghs)
And what i did was agha+dagger+refresher+fleet
Just fun to see how enemies are getting pulled from one tide to another multiple times

Especially cool when enemy bloodseeker ruptured you into a lotus

Sorry for offtopic
I will try to do a valid ontopic suggestion tonight
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 11:40
Even if I start new account when 1st is 1800+ PSR, it will require me roughly same number of games to reach top 10. (~50 games).
As I said, formula is ok-ish, and not the culprit. The problem is everyone playing with everyone , 1400 pts with 1700 pts.

If you want to let everyone play with everyone regardless PSR, the formula for balancing needs some weird AI implementation. In these cases (For games without locked players) simply assigning 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 the players ordered by PSR would be enough. So both teams get
a) a top PSR and
b) a bottom PSR

Can't stress enough about the fact that current PSR formula , if I (1700PSR) joins an average 1550 PSR game, puts all the 4 lowest PSR in my team. That won't be balanced EVER.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 11:43
And what i did was agha+dagger+refresher+fleet
Just fun to see how enemies are getting pulled from one tide to another multiple times

Especially cool when enemy bloodseeker ruptured you into a lotus

Tried refresher.. too slow. By the time you get the items you need game is over and you barely get to use refresher twice or trice. Octarine is far better. Each 30s you kill at least one of the squishier supports. And they can never go highground.

phase > radi > dagger > aghs > octarine , lotus

However refresher fits better for higher games, where you really need to kill 1 core to win game. The 6 boats chain stun is real, if you sync refresher well.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 10, 2020, 15:46
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If you want to let everyone play with everyone regardless PSR, the formula for balancing needs some weird AI implementation. In these cases (For games without locked players) simply assigning 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 the players ordered by PSR would be enough. So both teams get
a) a top PSR and
b) a bottom PSR

You mean to ignore the numerical differences between psr and only use the order? But what if you have 1 player 1900 psr and others below 1600 (which isn't a rare case). 1600 wouldn't match the 1900 and next turn that 1900 guy will get second strongest player (according to psr).

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but we treat 50 point difference the same as 1500-1550 as 1800-1850

Not quite, psr is not considered raw, its transformed with weights making higher psr make more impact for balancing.

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1800 and 1850 players might be quite similar in "skill", 1500 and 1550 players might be anything from 1200- to 1800+

This is still true: 1850 is the same 1800 who played more games. 1500-1550 are actual and smurf players. This can be improved by
1. Equalizing gain/lose which i did. Then playing more games won't give you psr advantage
2. Making players stick to 1 account which was attempted with more fair rules, achievements and a lvlup/experience system (which i planned but didn't implement). Also with icons, shop, ip bans and similar things

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Talking about balance, how can you balance a game when one player can win the game with 4 worse players in a team? You cant put equally abled players in both teams because it takes to much time or it is not possible at all.

Balancing is tied strongly to point distribution. I can make 1 game (for example for tours) perfectly balanced (best possible result at least) by ordering players by their skill and not only psr. But that would make the ladder unfair since for bad players it would be much easier to get points than for good players.

Generally, i could think about 2 approaches (beside current one)
1. Make win/lose equal for all
Problem here is that worst players would always get in same team with best players and get equal amount of points, often collecting easy wins. In the long run it would mean that the ladder would be ordered like this : best players > worst players > average players

2. Make win/lose based on skill
In this case best players would either get a lot of psr (if more skilled players are rewarded more) and create a gap between them and others or get hardly disadvantaged by getting low psr (if they are rewarded less, since they are expected to win due to being good players)

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If the administration would let people gain points faster there to increase top players score it would be easier to separate games by points (based on my 1st paragraph).

Its not hard to increase dispersion of the ladder by increasing either starting psr pool or slowing down its decay. Problem is that you might still get the same players just with bigger psr now. Also it will increase the factor of smurfs and impact of high psr players in lower games

But generally, it might actually work if done properly since there would be more space to reorder the players and place everyone on their according psr level.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 16:12
I`m just saying, that since for different cases, different PSR formula work better. Why not make a dynamic formula. That shifts to better suit given game.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 10, 2020, 16:33
I`m just saying, that since for different cases, different PSR formula work better. Why not make a dynamic formula. That shifts to better suit given game.

hard to implement. Also it maz not be fair to use different formula in different cases and hard to balance too
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: luke on February 10, 2020, 17:46
Its not easy to separate average players from smurfs. Generally they would win imbalanced games and get high psr asap. Not giving them quick psr will just result in more imbalanced games.

The only solution against smurfs is not letting them into your games (its same in all online games). And ofc making people stick to 1 account only
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 20:11
What about adding some join-limitation based on host's PSR ?

Let;s say host is 1500 .. let only 1400-1600 players join.
Also maybe when factoring someone's skill include aside the PSR somehow also the winrate and number of games this season.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: Akuma on February 10, 2020, 20:34
What about adding some join-limitation based on host's PSR ?

Let;s say host is 1500 .. let only 1400-1600 players join.
Also maybe when factoring someone's skill include aside the PSR somehow also the winrate and number of games this season.

good luck hosting game at 2AM with such system.
Title: Re: New PSR formula is live from today (30.9.2019)
Post by: pastmistake on February 10, 2020, 22:16
Example of "balanced" game where I get 3 of the lowest PSR.

http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6252132