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General Section => General Discussions => Topic started by: Arthas on February 16, 2020, 05:50

Title: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Arthas on February 16, 2020, 05:50
psr or person skill rank is a method to rank players in individual games where every action from the player that leads to win or lose affect that number ...first used in chess .
the only logical situation we can use psr in team games is to have fixed teams and each team has his own name .

in dota games when it comes to winning or losing this is not fair method to evaluate a player and that is the main reason most games are not balanced .

it is not the balance formula its the psr formula which needs to change ...to include other status like kills  deaths and assists not by games won and lost.

and more ranks must exist like kill rank and assist rank even deaths somehow should have a rank and you can make a rank for games won

psr calculated we use here does not fit a game like dota

if psr calculation changed we can interpret players true skills with numbers

Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Gainfast on March 30, 2020, 07:03
The feeling of me now is very glad to be with everyone here.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: grga_man on March 30, 2020, 14:47
Nothing cant help this server because good players left on other platform, so newbies stayed, so you dont have from anyone to learn, also accept system IT WONT BE CHANGED because you zeroes cant learn basics, why would anyone waste his time and bother to "fix" this when you all are not capable to learn basic stuff from dota which is way more simplier than coders to do theirs job like monax, luke and cen..
And arthas no offence but you suck so hard, watch clips on yt if you wanna improve at least, i know its old game but still you're playing it for a long time, why dont become a normal player.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: territory23 on March 31, 2020, 23:58
Typically, one pro player chose to blame others instead of looking at big picture.

There are hundreds of people playing in this server and we can assume most of them is average. There are noobs and pros as well.

Almost everybody wants to play a good balanced game. Being pro or noob does not change that.

You can be noob but this does not mean that you need to play a game with final score 3-31.

Because of this PSR balance there are many unbalanced games. In addition what I generally see is high PSR players often pick easy play carry heroes in order to keep their high PSR. I can say when someone has 20 of their 30 teamkills, we can not talk about balance.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Arthas on April 06, 2020, 20:05
Nothing cant help this server because good players left on other platform, so newbies stayed, so you dont have from anyone to learn, also accept system IT WONT BE CHANGED because you zeroes cant learn basics, why would anyone waste his time and bother to "fix" this when you all are not capable to learn basic stuff from dota which is way more simplier than coders to do theirs job like monax, luke and cen..
And arthas no offence but you suck so hard, watch clips on yt if you wanna improve at least, i know its old game but still you're playing it for a long time, why dont become a normal player.
Nothing cant help this server because good players left on other platform, so newbies stayed, so you dont have from anyone to learn, also accept system IT WONT BE CHANGED because you zeroes cant learn basics, why would anyone waste his time and bother to "fix" this when you all are not capable to learn basic stuff from dota which is way more simplier than coders to do theirs job like monax, luke and cen..
And arthas no offence but you suck so hard, watch clips on yt if you wanna improve at least, i know its old game but still you're playing it for a long time, why dont become a normal player.

i didnt mention pro or noob players ....please define pro player in few words and be useful
like this  noob =newbie or new to the game

and you talk about basics .....there is no basics in dota ...dota can not be played with fixed way... we play the way we like ...thats the beauty in dota ...the limitless possibilities that stimulate real life...the thing is you want everyone to play like you ...you are boring ...experience is a better word than basics

by the way i am a little above normal player and i dont remember playing with you .for i do remember good players

and your english suchs hard
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Happy.. on April 06, 2020, 23:38
and your english suchs hard

*sucks
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: CoMMoN1337 on April 12, 2020, 07:03
Any form of metric is good for determining who is the best at that specific metric.

Winning is the main objective of the game, therefore having winning as the metric is the best way to rank people.

If other forms of rating were present, people would give up on trying to win when the game is even slightly difficult and they would instead try to farm rating points in those specific hypothetical ways.

To give a small example, if you would gain some rating points for having x amount of last hits, people would afk on lanes to get those last hits instead of doing things on the map like they should.

Another example, if you would gain some rating points for having y amount of kills, people would start using spells only to last hit the kill instead of using the spells when they should in order to win the fight.

Yet another example, if you would gain some rating points for having z amount of k.d.a. ratio, everyone would start being scared of dying and not going in to do things in fights even if they should, (because every death reduces the k.d.a. ratio immensely), and so on and so forth.

Therefore, having only winning as a metric is the best.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: ilikedat on April 12, 2020, 07:58
In one vs one yes commy but not in 5v5. Having only that measure im pretty sure u wont be able to determine if someone is noob or pro in lobby. The current ranking system isnt the best but its great to be possible to check the players and to be prepared who u can trust to make some plays in game. Rgc have only win/lose stats and the lvl there is higher than here for sure but u can never know if someone is good or not without being posible to see his skills first.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: luke on April 12, 2020, 13:49
They are scared of dying because of stats. Everybody knows, if you have 5/6 sd then you are noob and will be kicked from all games.

Quote
To give a small example, if you would gain some rating points for having x amount of last hits, people would afk on lanes to get those last hits instead of doing things on the map like they should.

People often afk on lanes because they dont know that they should do too.

Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: iErnesto94 on April 12, 2020, 15:46
The same system worked fine many years ago. Imo the psr system feels worse the last years because there are not many hosted games at the same time. Players are forced to be in lobbies with excessively stacking hosts or they have to wait 20-30min and hope that the next host will be less stacker.

We need to add rules for hosts that are repeatitevely stacking in an obsurd way.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: luke on April 12, 2020, 16:31
It worked better because there were more players. Now high psr players arent contested and are forced to play with low players or smurf ruining games for others. Example: http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6274004

But generally even mun admitted that system doesnt work as it should due to some missing components
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: iErnesto94 on April 12, 2020, 21:31
Less hosted games means less players :P.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: pastmistake on April 13, 2020, 09:15
It worked better because there were more players. Now high psr players arent contested and are forced to play with low players or smurf ruining games for others. Example: http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6274004

But generally even mun admitted that system doesnt work as it should due to some missing components

That's me and my strong penix
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/462684713610379275.png?v=1)
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: beastiary on April 14, 2020, 06:31
promote stacking, solve your problems
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Nexxus on April 16, 2020, 05:52
Make the system like RGC 5 psr per win - 3 per lose
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: ilikedat on April 16, 2020, 06:32
Make the system like RGC 5 psr per win - 3 per lose
maybe that would be good. the current one takes too much time to go above 1700 due the lack of high psr players to play againts.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: pastmistake on April 16, 2020, 12:51
Quote
Make the system like RGC 5 psr per win - 3 per lose
You have no idea what you are talking. Been there, done that. That system is flawed to the root. Mainly because 5 losses = 3 wins , that makes it for any 37.5% winrate or above, you get to go up ladder. So you reward quantity vs quality.

Adding "!balance" makes it a bit better vs the RGC version, but still shitty.

So the fix would be make it +5/-5 (Fixed amount) but that would mean we back to our version, with the only difference, Lagabuse version lets "smurfs" go up faster so they don't fuck with lowpsr games too much.

Just like what valve does now, when after 10 wins in a row or something like that, it starts giving you +50 MMR.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: ilikedat on April 16, 2020, 12:58
My friend even on la system if the game is balanced 50/50 or below  u will lose less than u earn so your argument is irrelevant.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: pastmistake on April 16, 2020, 13:27
That explains why low-winrate/average skilled players are in top 50.
I never said lagabuse system is excellent.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: AntlermanXXL on April 16, 2020, 14:17
Sorry for offtopic, but mister ilikedat was never good at discussing anything, like really never; At least via internet, from what we have observed over years here; Awesome suggestion is to just skip those messages

Quote
Just like what valve does now, when after 10 wins in a row or something like that, it starts giving you +50 MMR.
Sounds interesting btw !

Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Nexxus on April 17, 2020, 05:55
Do you really get 50 mmr per game if you go on 10 winstreak?
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: pastmistake on April 17, 2020, 12:25
Well is not all about winstreak with current (pretty sure AI involved) matchmaking system. They say it's a complex formula, but main components are winstreak and account uncertainty.

But I think same applies for boosted accounts, where you can lose more than 30MMR / game.

Quote
We also track our uncertainty about your MMR. New accounts and those playing in Ranked Matchmaking for the first time have high uncertainty. Higher uncertainty allows larger adjustments after each match, and lower uncertainty leads to smaller adjustments. Together, the MMR and uncertainty can be interpreted as a probability distribution of performance in your next game; the MMR itself serves as the mean of this distribution and the uncertainty is its standard deviation. If the match outcomes (both the win/loss and individual performance) repeatedly match our expectations, the uncertainty tends to decrease until it reaches a floor. A surprising match outcome will tend to cause an increase in uncertainty.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: pastmistake on April 17, 2020, 12:28
tl;dr.

The advantage of the dota 2 system is, THEY DON'T PUT IN CHARGE a player (the host) of balancing a game. And you cannot know/pick your team before game starts. So you don;t get to choose with whom you play. That makes it fair from my perspective.

Having players with %70+ winrate it's a clear sign of bad balancing.
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: luke on April 17, 2020, 20:18
agree, in overwatch you have 50% winrate because you are placed on rating which suits you, so all have decent game. Only problem is with smurf, for example platinum comes to silver and wins game solo, same like here a lot of smurfs
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Arthas on April 17, 2020, 21:38
Any form of metric is good for determining who is the best at that specific metric.

Winning is the main objective of the game, therefore having winning as the metric is the best way to rank people.

If other forms of rating were present, people would give up on trying to win when the game is even slightly difficult and they would instead try to farm rating points in those specific hypothetical ways.

To give a small example, if you would gain some rating points for having x amount of last hits, people would afk on lanes to get those last hits instead of doing things on the map like they should.

Another example, if you would gain some rating points for having y amount of kills, people would start using spells only to last hit the kill instead of using the spells when they should in order to win the fight.

Yet another example, if you would gain some rating points for having z amount of k.d.a. ratio, everyone would start being scared of dying and not going in to do things in fights even if they should, (because every death reduces the k.d.a. ratio immensely), and so on and so forth.

Therefore, having only winning as a metric is the best.


the right psr calculation should include win/lost games as a part of equation for example 
 psr =-+(x)  where x is game + won - lost  thats the current calculation

what it should be like  psr=-+x -+y+z 
x  number from game condition of win/lose  +added or - substracted from the psr

y  let it be difference between kills and deaths in positive or negative added to psr calculation

z  let it equal to zero or positive if assist is bigger than kills and deaths combined

that is example for adding other status to calculate psr

from my point of view... winning  games is not neccesary the point of playing ... destroying the tree or the throne is just how the game ends...

you made it sound like current psr forces players to play the game in specific way ...thats the fucking problem .... ;D
Title: Re: what is wronge with psr system?
Post by: Jimmy on April 17, 2020, 21:43
This actually has sense.