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General Section => General Discussions => Topic started by: Resor on May 22, 2014, 01:22
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Hey,
I know everyone have his favorite poll of heroes or 1 favorite hero. I just wonder did you ever consider some hero to be worst of all. Most important to pick the worst hero, you need to have solid reasons which may determine the one.
For me it's Enigma:
Basically Enigma have ONLY team purpose and of course it's "Black Hole". This hero in my opinion have nothing else to serious harm enemy. Even Black Hole have bad sides - channeling. It can be stopped anytime with stun, ministun, silence, forcestaff... It can be stopped by 75% spells, items and abilities in game. At this point question is why would not pick some other ulti AOE hero like Tidehunter or Magnus. Both of this heroes have fighting potential and survivability.
Enigma is quite good when you start game farming in woods - but question is, why would not pick Lycan, Lucifer, Leoric or even (second pathetic hero) Chen.
Malefice spell have good outcome only on early game. As further game goes heroes become pumped up by items and abilities which make this spell obsolete.
Demonic Conversion is skill which can do quite nice damage in early game, but later on it's only gold... for enemy.
Overall I don't see Enigma competition with any other hero - it have no survivability, poor support skills (you will find 60% of heroes who have better supporting skills), it have no serious damaging skills, ultimate is channeling which makes it easy to break (grab only 4 from 5 players in team fight and there is 70% chance that hero have something to break your ult).
Do you have your private candidate? I invite you to share opinion.
note: Any idiotic comments will be removed.
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There are no worst heroes, if you could consider some hero the worst, then it would have to be someone which does only something specific and nothing else, those who lack the ability to do many tasks are the "weakest", but then if you use what that hero does very efficiently then it's also completely irrelevant if he can't do anything else.
If you take advantage of what it can do very well, it won't matter, and heroes which lack versatility to do something else are usually those who are extremely powerful in a particular area of options which if taken advantage of can easily win you the game.
Conclusion: every hero has it's purpose, none can be considered "weakest".
It's irrelevant if the black hole is channeling when you black hole the entire enemy team, no one can cancel the black hole if you do it on the entire enemy team.
You say "what if they are split, to avoid that", then it is a 5 vs X fight, where X < 5 so the enigma team will have the advantage, you say "but it's not 5 vs X, it's 4 vs X because enigma is useless without black hole", he certainly is not, an enigma with 6 eidolons can deal SERIOUS damage.
So, if the enemy team split, they get picked off one by one, if they stick together, they get black holed and they all die through the focus of the enigma team + enigma spells casted before the black hole, if they split and stay far away from enigmas team, enigmas team can just push. What can the enemy team do ?
In very many cases, absolutely nothing if the enigma player knows what he is doing.
The enemies of enigmas team should've taken the time to kill enigma before the fight or make sure the other heroes are very weak by killing them while enigma is not around (so that when enigma ulties it won't matter because the rest of his team will be too weak to deal damage), when it gets to a balanced state it's very hard to win against an enigma which knows what it's doing, and because of enigmas spells, enigma can easily dominate earlygame and influence the game so it goes to that point where it's too late to do anything for the enemy team, because he can push towers down very fast with eidolons and his ulti is extremely powerful early.
Enigma is one of the heroes which can easily decide the game, if not killed/focused before a teamfight starts/at the start of a teamfight.
You say tide or magnus are better for ulti, first of all, tides ulti gets blocked by magic immunity, black hole doesn't, and magnus, it depends on the situation, magnus is better for this specific task since he can also move around/attack after casting it and it's lower cooldown, but again the cooldown is irrelevant if the ulti is used correctly, if enigma uses the ulti then wins the game it won't matter if it has longer cooldown or if he can't move around in its duration.
Magnus also can't act as a lich early game with denying creeps with demonic conversion before they reach the enemy xp range, an enigma with many mana potions can just continously remove xp from the enemy team, nothing they can do about it.
Also, for your info incase you didn't know, enigmas black hole lasts 4 seconds at the first level of ulti, magnus ulti lasts 3.75 seconds at the third level of ulti.
Therefore obviously enigma has a much, much greater impact earlier, especially with eidolons. Eidolons are very powerful, a level 9 enigma with 6 eidolons can do around 200 dps to a DK with max armor, add the annoying ministun which doesn't let you get away or cast channeling spells for 6 seconds, add a black hole after that, you are looking at around 2000 dmg over the course of the malefice + blackhole to a DK, at level 9 enigma.
It's safe to say enigma can kill any hero early game, has a powerful pushing ability, an extremely powerful ulti if used correctly, so the hero is very good, you probably just never saw it properly played and that's why you jumped to your conclusion.
Chen, which you said is pathetic, has been considered by the competitive players for a very long time to be the most powerful influencial hero in the game, and now is considered one of the most influencial/the most influencial by pretty much everyone, every good player that is, competitive/or just good player with good game knowledge.
Why ? Do I need to say it ? Good luck defending your towers early vs 5 people one of which is chen with 3 centaurs running behind that tower ready to stomp you if you come close, good luck sitting on a lane early if chen gets a harpy neutral and continously spams lightning at you doing around 100 damage every 2 seconds to you, from around 1000 range and if chen gets 2 wildkins and does tornadoes near your position at the creepwave, good luck going invis with any invis hero if chen gets 3 trolls and nets you, good luck clearing creeps faster than a chen with 3 satyrs, good luck running away from a chen with 3 ursas, good luck fighting 5v5 vs a chen with ulti and meka which can also send back a hero which your team MUST focus in order to win a fight because he does too much damage if left alone, and then after all the work done to try to kill that hero, chen sends him back to heal, he heals tps back to fight, and then your important spells are on cooldown.
Both enigma and chen are heroes which win most of the time by brute force, they just go in/wait the fight to start then go in and do too much, it all depends on the gameplay of the entire team, if the team did well it wins, if it didn't do well it loses.
Both enigma and chen are extremely powerful earlygame-midgame, chen much more powerful once he gets his creeps, enigma much more powerful late because of his ulti while chen fades late, but it doesn't matter if he fades late if he wins midgame now does it, and it also doesn't matter how good they are if their teammates don't do anything and lack damage, there's nothing they can do to win then either.
Again, ultimately, dota games are decided mostly by GAMEPLAY, second by picks, contrary to popular belief.
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God I felt asleep after reading first words of common post...
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But he has a point.
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For me personally the worse heroes are simply Clinkz, Riki, Gondar.
Not for the DMG as they can pwn easy, but for the team, all three of them
always get picked by the biggest nabs, who use it just for stats,
hidding, last hit kses, 0 skills for the team
(most rikis dont even use fog which is extremely helpfull).
RIP for all 3 of them and dota will have a new meaning.
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Since Enigma's ulty has 500 AoE, other team should try avoid it as much as possible.
I mean when you play vs Enigma, you don't stand or can't stand very close to your allies - just to avoid being black holed all together.
Even tho Enigma isn't visible, you have to expect that he/she/it will blink in and ulty. There should be some disabler standing bit away from others.
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Everyone has different opinion. Depends what do we mean by worst. If solo playing yea it has nothing special, but helping in teamfights its much better than many other hero.
As for me I got few types of worst hero in overall thinking:
Chen
Visage
Pit lord
*arc warden
*techies
However 2 last played well can be great defensors or pushers.
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Everyone has different opinion. Depends what do we mean by worst. If solo playing yea it has nothing special, but helping in teamfights its much better than many other hero.
As for me I got few types of worst hero in overall thinking:
Chen
Visage
Pit lord
*arc warden
*techies
However 2 last played well can be great defensors or pushers.
U must be joking men :)
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(I'm not trying to insult any of you, I'm just saying facts without regard of your personal reaction to the way I phrase it, I'm not a fan of beating around the bush to minimize your ego's damage, I'm a fan of saying it as it is (and I'm quite positive you've noticed this about me because of my other posts, but some of you still have this ideea that I'm just insulting you for no reason) since that will actually help you more for multiple reasons, as it focuses the point/your attention to the issue at hand and doesn't waste time with other things, and also sometimes makes your ego's reaction, to what I say, work in your favour, constructively. Anyway, back on topic.)
What most of you still don't understand, for various reasons such as from being at a low level of skill, or simply too stubborn to accept the truth, is that all heroes are useful in their particular ways, therefore none can be the "worst".
You can't play it well ? So what.
Noobs pick it ? Who cares.
You always seen it play badly ? Well of course you will always see it play badly, since everyone on this server is bad.
You don't like it ? Go ahead and call it whatever you want then if it makes you feel better, call it "most retarded hero on the planet, the worst hero ever made", but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't the "worst", because it simply cannot be, because it is useful in some ways, no matter what hero it is, so don't go around actually believing some hero is the worst, because it's simply not true.
Again, dota in general, will be decided by picks alone, only when the level of play and dota awareness, knowledge usage, speed in reactions etc of every single player in the game, will be at the perfect level, which will never be the case, realistically speaking. There will always be very many nuances and variations and possibilities because of the level of play, all which make your particular view of a hero being useless completely irrelevant, as the truth is different.
The final point/conclusion (which already was said by me in my earlier post, and apparently I need to say it again for some reason) is, that it's not at all a matter of opinion as most of you seem to believe, it is simply a matter of fact that there are no worst heroes.
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fuck bara players
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fuck bara players
I am have to be agreement with you.
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fuck bara players
I am have to be agreement with you.
i am have to asked you to join the realm
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I forgot to add two things in my previous post
(I'm not trying to insult any of you, I'm just saying facts without regard of your personal reaction to the way I phrase it, I'm not a fan of beating around the bush to minimize your ego's damage, I'm a fan of saying it as it is (and I'm quite positive you've noticed this about me because of my other posts, but some of you still have this ideea that I'm just insulting you for no reason) since that will actually help you more for multiple reasons, as it focuses the point/your attention to the issue at hand and doesn't waste time with other things, and also sometimes makes your ego's reaction, to what I say, work in your favour, constructively, like for example when I call you the worst dota players on the planet, maybe after that you get annoyed because of your ego and actually bother to try and be better than you are. Anyway, back on topic.)
Again, dota in general, will be decided by picks alone, only when the level of play and dota awareness, knowledge usage, speed in reactions etc of every single player in the game, will be at the perfect level (and even then, it won't be because of "this hero is the worst hero", it will be because of the pick combination being improper (some heroes simply don't work well with each other), which at the theoretical perfect level will make each extreme weakness painfully obvious and game deciding), which will never be the case, realistically speaking. There will always be very many nuances and variations and possibilities because of the level of play, all which make your particular view of a hero being useless completely irrelevant, as the truth is different.
fuck bara players
I am have to be agreement with you.
i am have to asked you to join the realm
I am eating player now, I am dota player after.
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Stackers....
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clinkz, bara...
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I dont hate any heroes, I just hate stackers who asslick others with higher points just to believe they will win the game
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For me it's Enigma:
Basically Enigma have ONLY team purpose and of course it's "Black Hole"
Red part is main reason why people play enigma bad and feed in pubs. Far from worst hero anyway.
Here is one average example of how enigma can be pretty useful and win solo lane versus one of strongest solo laners - QoP, and also be very useful in mid part of game.
http://ss.leaguebots.com/gamestats.php?id=106
And one more
http://ss.leaguebots.com/gamestats.php?id=115
Back to the topic, there is no really worst hero in DotA, but some are for sure weaker than others.
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Back to the topic, there is no really worst hero in DotA, but some are for sure weaker than others.
A hero can be weaker than another hero in particular aspects, for example ammount of burst/disable, but they aren't weaker than one another overall from start to finish regardless of the game matchup, like you said above. You might've just not expressed yourself properly and ment something else, but I'll continue replying to what you wrote though.
What exactly are you talking about ? Pick-counterpick ? That is true for weaker/stronger in a 1v1 game, not a 5v5. In a 5v5 there are so many possibilities, hero combinations with different gameplay style than normal, many of which none of you have any clue about.
Go ahead and give me some examples of heroes being weaker than other heroes if you continue claiming the part I bolded in your post is true. (all theory only, I'm not interested in examples of games because none of the games you will be able to procure will be played properly by any side, especially if there was a possibility to counter which wasn't obvious, since everyone is at a very low level)
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guess what common is trying to say is that every hero is good,and thats why we love dota.every hero in dota has some advatage/disadvantage at the start.simply put,there are no good/bad heroes at dota.team gameplay has a lot if not the crucial part about the game.at the end its 5vs5 game not X vs Y game
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Sanctos is worst dota hero
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Sanctos is worst dota hero
Ice Frog like this :)
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You can always pick Enigma end perform well.
It doesn't mean that Enigma have something special that other hero didn't have. Imagine yourself in the same place with slight different hero. Your outcome would be probably the same but you could have wider book of possibilities.
I mentioned Tide for those who picks Enigma just for ult. Why not Tide? He can really harm and stand alone on lane while Enigma might have a problem. Tide ult is devastating and stunning - Enigma needs to channel it for make it done and Enigma it's out of the fight for this several seconds. I don't agree with magic damage reduction (since it's physical ult) - it's still do the job more or less, and better than Enigma. Pumped up Void can also do a lot of harm while ult, but he can do many harm without it.
This is a differences I talk about. You may pick Enigma and enjoy you've done good or not, but when you pick some other hero, you will play good or not but with better outcome.
Other heroes are simply better - they have other skills that can be useful for farming, harassing, supporting, and ultimate...
This is my private point.
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Of course it has something special that other heroes don't have, no other hero has eidolons or black hole. Slightly different hero, wider book of possibilities, all nice, but irrelevant if you can play the hero properly and always make an advantage for your team using what your hero can do best.
There are no private points in dota, dota isn't something mystical that is indecipherable to allow private points. Like I said before, you can consider tide better than enigma if you want in your "private point", but it changes nothing in reality.
No one should pick enigma just for the ulti, no one should pick tide just for the ulti.
They both provide different things which MUST be taken into consideration before picking them.
Tide's ulti has a wider range but goes slowly outward from him, some may escape it around the edge, but still it does have a wider range and it can potentially get more people in it, however it doesn't go through bkb so it becomes weaker later when people get them, meanwhile enigma doesn't have that big a range, but it's effect is instant in the 500 aoe after casting, and it goes through bkb, but yeah it's channeling, in some cases it will matter, in some cases not, the point is, it's obvious to everyone (which has an open mind about it) that both of them have the potential to do better than one another in some scenarios.
So you can't just go like "tide's better", and ignore everything else because that's your "private point".
That's about it for the ulti talk, now the much more important part the other skills, skills which will be spammed for lane control, chasing and so on, which will be DECIDING the early game advantage, who has more gold/xp going into the midgame.
Tide has a slow, slow doesn't stop people from tping or channeling spells, but the slow does slow the opponent from running more than enigma's ministun if the opponent has high ms.
Tide's anchor is a decent aoe harass ability but low range, you can use it to farm well, enigma's eidolons have a good range so he can harass better than tide, enigma can farm better than tide with eidolons, enigma can obviously push much better than tide since tide's spell doesn't harm towers.
Tide's shell is a passive ability that doesn't deal damage to enemies but let's him get off his ulti almost every time, enigma has a nice damage overtime spell which can be used magnificently with the black hole, especially with an aghanim black hole which applies it again for the duration, which won't matter if he fucks up the black hole.
If you look at all their skills, you can easily see enigma is much more skill requiering to play properly, because of weak hp, no survivable/helping skills (like tide's shell), and channeling ulti. That doesn't mean enigma is worse, which you clearly believe.
You should consider what each hero can do at its maximum potential, not at the peak of tides skill level requierement.
Just because enigma is harder to play for you than tide or void doesn't mean it will have "weaker outcome than other heroes", sure, that might apply to you now, but that doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth, and it still doesn't mean it's your "private point", at the proper skill level, that "private point" isn't valid anymore, so if it can change from a simple thing like more skill being present, then it was never true, not even for you.
When you dota knowledge will improve, you will understand what I'm talking about.
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Ah, now I've realised why you keep thinking the way you do, you are thinking about things in the wrong way.
You need to realise you are talking about 5v5 scenarios, you are continously thinking about "what can this hero do on its own", in which case yes, like I said before, heroes are clearly weaker/superior than one another in a 1v1 game, but in a 5v5 that is irrelevant, enigma, although weaker individually than tide and void in terms of survivability, can potentially be much stronger than tide or void in 5v5 fights, 5v5 fights are usually much more relevant to the game outcome than a heros survivability.
Why you say ? Synergize enigma with a strong melee carry with a battlefury while enigma does his ulti which brings people together, and the effect is deadly, you can't say the same for tide and void. Tide just disables people, not even always because it moves slow at the edge and it doesn't go through bkb, and it provides no such opportunity for a strong carry to deal massive ammounts of damage to all the people caught in it (maybe medusa), voids ulti works fine with himself and big range heroes, but it doesn't bring people together so even if he has a battlefury he might not hit them all, also it doesn't work that well with other melee heroes.
Like I said in my earlier post, enigma clearly gives more to the team in terms of pushing, which is extremely important early to build an advantage, an advantage that will count much more than any individual aspects of heroes, so even if enigma is in many situations weaker, enigma is in many situations better.
You cannot say its worse and that the outcome will always be worse than with other "slightly different heroes".
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moar please
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I made something for all you faggot bara pickers
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r569/justinww1992/BARAFAGGOTS_zps46cfa92e.png) (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/justinww1992/media/BARAFAGGOTS_zps46cfa92e.png.html)
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watafuq, this avatar xd
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wow, much skilled, talkin like pro, every day new acc, 1500 prs max.
P.S. http://www.gofundme.com/99yvcc
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Didnt read a shit here.
Found Enigma.
WTF o_0?
Enigma is one of the beast heros there;
Worst heroes - heroes like axe, legion, huskar, etc. Heroes which almost doesnt bring a skill to player. Ppl just picking it, making some standart item (or just waits for late) and pwns everyone with 1-2 buttons; So, these heroes dont teach player a shit, thats why they're worst. Fcking imho
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I agree with monax
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how the fuck iz posibble that u agree with everyone jean? ???
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I made something for all you faggot bara pickers
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r569/justinww1992/BARAFAGGOTS_zps46cfa92e.png) (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/justinww1992/media/BARAFAGGOTS_zps46cfa92e.png.html)
veri hawaii
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I think all dota heroes are weak cuz not strong
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If some hero doesn't require lot of skills, that doesn't mean the hero is bad.
Maybe annoying, but not bad.
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Everyone has a purpose.
Everyone is good combo
like Nai'x Bara Prophet AA Dark Seer
Its like mega very decent Jean like Pick
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I agree with jimmy even tho i have no freaking idea what the actual fuck he is saying
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I agree with jimmy even tho i have no freaking idea what the actual fuck he is saying
Mission accomplished