Another ban mod on a power trip

[iNK]

Christ. PD.EU mods, I think it's time for a crash course in argumentation!

In a discussion, one is supposed to defend one's opinion with arguments. Just making a statement with no justification does not count as solid reasoning. Justifying one's opinion with invalid arguments (fallacies) only weakens your position. Blatantly ignoring your opponents' arguments to mindlessly repeat your own statements with no/fallacious argumentation is not how you're supposed to win an debate.

Boldly claiming to be right "I DID PROVEN YOU WRONG, OMGGGG" even though your argumentation is based on an advanced superiority complex and a distinct lack of cognitive reasoning makes uou look like a bit of an idiot.
If anyone seriously wants to debate this, try DISPROVING the many, many arguments put forth by NEGERTIVS and myself, instead of dumbly claiming to be right. Because mods, so far you've only shown us how terrible your debating skills are, not that you're right.

Funny, I find it hard to see you or negertivs saying anything different for these last 7 pages, besides leaver means xxx. Anyways we said all there is to say, there is no more arguement. If there is ideological differences among us, so be it. You will not intrigue us to continue this endless discussion. Just remember what it says in the first part of rules.. These bans are not obligatory. It is mainly moderator’s decision. So no matter how much you want to preach about what leaver means and who made it that way, it still comes down to us. You can continue to ramble to yourself, if you so choose to.

[NEGERTIVS]

So basically all you people have said is "lol mi mod joo lowly peasant, my word is law". You have said somewhere in this thread that I am treating the rules as some kind of religious text. Ofcourse not. When there is a case against someone this case should either be proven or disproven by discussing how the rules apply to this case. Especially in a conflict involving a mod. Giving your opinion and then just saying "yep this is my opinion I am right" is not interpreting the rules, it's blatantly making up new ones.

I have disproven a whole range of faulty arguments and "opinions" using quotes, simple and clear reasoning and the rules. I am not saying "the same things" over and over again. All of the comments made by the mods can basically be summed up into "Lol we are the mods, and we will do nothing about this, because its our opinion and our opinion is always right!". I have always been correct and polite, you on the other hand have flamed me endlessly ("rage-nerd" , "nerdgertivs" or whatever, "joo a nobody") and have throughout this discussion ignored valid points made, or countered valid points by giving your OPINION, which is NOT A VALID ARGUMENT, merely your opinion!

I have come here with a case that is still valid, according to the rules and the many, many arguments I have put forth to support my case. All the mods have done is be condescending, arrogant, flame and ramble off-topic. We have clearly won this discussion yet you keep uttering bullshit like "lol mi mod joo argument invalid, no power abuse". This makes you mods indeed look like complete idiots.

Read the statements I have made at the top of page 7 and see how I completely proved the head mod wrong, using the rules and valid argumentation.

[night_must_fall]

OMG 

[NEGERTIVS]

From my point of view I dont think he abused mod powers!
Well he only said "You know you can be banned for that" and he was right about that, you could, but you did not!

Again this is not proving me wrong using valid arguments, it is giving your opinion! You even said it! "From my point of view". I dont care about your opinion, I care about which rule or interpretation of a rule proves you are right! There is none! Ergo I am right.

Please, please, please state where in the rules it says that I should be banned for following the rules (and not the ones that you made up in your "opinion").

I have already countered your opinion in THIS post [ http://playdota.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23621.msg74353.html#msg74353 ]. Please, please, please read it before you blatantly ignore it again and simply restate your opinion and your belief that you are right.

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@night_must_fall Really? Do you really think "OMG" to be a good contribution to this discussion? I have asked you to sod off before, since apparently all you are able to do is flame off-topic and ramble in incoherent english. Instead of defending yourself all you have done is flame me. Go away.

[hotbarbecue]

Machines need a full set of rules to deal with situations. Human beings dont, cause they can think.

You banned when it was unnecessary, acted like a stupid machine, and now you keep fighting here with your so-called shakespearian vocabulary, trying to prove you're superior.

Bah, never mind my warn level : you're a fucking dipshit, "dude".

[mrNiceguy]

Negertivs, ok I will try to be clear as much as i can now!

 banning someone without decent reason!

If he cant "feel" when he can and can not ban leaver, then he shouldnt host games. End of story.

Nothing more to say after this!

[NEGERTIVS]

Negertivs, ok I will try to be clear as much as i can now!

 banning someone without decent reason!

Okay, Ill try to be as clear as possible now:
Again you have stated an opinion without giving me any valid reasoning or referring to a rule.
HE LEFT, PLAYER MUST NOT LEAVE. I have argued this for pages and you have still not proven me wrong. Be it a warn, a ban, a disc, a plug, ALT-F4 or mommy disconnecting the router, he still broke this rule, I have therefore banned him with good reason and in good conscience.

Should I be having a list of people's previous offenses the size of an encyclopedia as a host? Ofcourse I could not know if this was his first offense or not (but since you have claimed him to be a frequent lagger, I consider it likely that this is not even his first offense). Assuming that I as the wronged party should put in extra effort by requesting a ban for a lagger, instead of the actual rule-breaker putting in some extra effort by requesting an unban makes absolutely zero sense and is nowhere to be found in the rules. Again you are apparently making up new rules as you go!

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You banned when it was unnecessary, acted like a stupid machine, and now you keep fighting here with your so-called shakespearian vocabulary, trying to prove you're superior.

Bah, never mind my warn level : you're a fucking dipshit, "dude".

Well thanks for your opinion captain justice. You have not made any valid point, you just called me names and judged me even though you have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion. Please fudge off. Cheers! (I will simply be ignoring pants-on-head retarded posts like this one from now on)

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If he cant "feel" when he can and can not ban leaver, then he shouldnt host games. End of story.

Seriously? I should be able to "feel" when to ban a leaver? You dont even require your mods to speak english and know the rules, but you require the hosts to be psychic? Just how retarded is this? LMAO.

I keep referring to the rules because cases should be judged by the rules. It's done everywhere in the world, be it in courts of law, Clanbase, GGL, MLG, WDC and whatnot. But it's supposedly different here? Instead of applying this case to the rules to see which party is right, we should just let some mod judge this based on nothing but his imagination? Do you even see what happens when you dont stick to the rules in cases like these? You get a bunch of condescending and arrogant mods state their opinion as if it were word of law. If you dont judge mods by the rules then they are free to do anything they like. Do you really "feel" this would be a good thing?

[hotbarbecue]

oh my, isn't he narrow-minded? 

You should consider enlisting into the Special Parking Control Forces of your local police. You would have some great carreer.

[night_must_fall]

oh my, isn't he narrow-minded? 

You should consider enlisting into the Special Parking Control Forces of your local police. You would have some great carreer.

+1

[NEGERTIVS]

Again instead of giving his view on whether you are guilty or not (something you have failed to do as well "night_must_fall"), this pantsman just plainly insulted me, again.

Who's being narrow-minded here? All you seem to be able to do is produce insults. Im actually more worried about your career options, given the skillset you have shown here!

[Geistesblitz]

I keep referring to the rules because cases should be judged by the rules. It's done everywhere in the world, be it in courts of law, Clanbase, GGL, MLG, WDC and whatnot. But it's supposedly different here? Instead of applying this case to the rules to see which party is right, we should just let some mod judge this based on nothing but his imagination? Do you even see what happens when you dont stick to the rules in cases like these? You get a bunch of condescending and arrogant mods state their opinion as if it were word of law. If you dont judge mods by the rules then they are free to do anything they like. Do you really "feel" this would be a good thing?

We are referring to the same exact rules you are. You just don't seem to understand them as a whole. What is happening here is that you read one rule and isolate it from the rest. You should study the rules closer, the whole thing. Then you will see what's wrong with this post.

I can't find any reasoning of why anyone would think this is a special case because it's night_must_fall. Why don't you review a few ban/unban requests similar to what has happened here? You will see it's the same outcome of the rules.

If we really followed your thought about a specific line on the rules posted we wouldn't give !bl to hosts; we'd just have the bot autoban everyone that leaves the game before the end.

As I said before, I believe hosts should at least know the rules before hosting a game.

Everyone, hosts, moderators and users fall under the same set of rules. If you have questions about a specific part of the rules I can clear them out for you; regardless if it's related to this matter or not.

When moderators resolve requests, they don't just look at the outcome of what happened, but we must also look at what lead to that outcome. The rules are out there, public to everyone. Rules aren't something we hide from users, nor are they taboo.

We have the rules divided in sections. Each section estates the rule and has some sort of explanation about it. Then there is the ban codex which is more of a table. Each rule is divided on repeated offenses. If it's the first, second, third, or fourth time.

My offer to explain the rules on a different topic is open. (The only condition is no flaming and no accusing others of anything)

[ArizaelCZ]

giving your OPINION, which is NOT A VALID ARGUMENT, merely your opinion![/b]

You should know that moderator's decision works as an act of free will ( there is clear statement about that in rules) based on the moderators opinion. Ergo sum the mods opinion is valid argument. Just as the opinion of a court is damn valid argument.

We have clearly won this discussion yet you keep uttering bullshit like "lol mi mod joo argument invalid, no power abuse". This makes you mods indeed look like complete idiots.

Amazing. The first time in my life when particing side of a debate makes the final and undiscutable decision who won. Clear proof that something is wrong in your head.

Read the statements I have made at the top of page 7 and see how I completely proved the head mod wrong, using the rules and valid argumentation.

Reading your post makes me see( excluding unprovoken insults againts everybody who tries to disagree with you) useless wall of text in a form of a short essay, based on the thing that you couldn't ban somebody who got dc on loading screen. There is no rule for being disconnected from the game. Dc doesn't mean leaving nor de iure nor de facto.

So if your friend knows what does the argumentation means, you should both also know that you are supposed to actualy persueade somebody, not just shout around about your rethorical superiority because all your "valid" arguments are not based on actual facts.

[0uts1d3r]

[stuiterbal]

First:
Disconnecting:  Intransitive verb 1: to terminate a connection

Plug-pulling: 1. prevent from happening or continuing

So that we're clear. If you've got any different opinions on the meaning of those words, try to get those in a dictionary.

Read the statements I have made at the top of page 7 and see how I completely proved the head mod wrong, using the rules and valid argumentation.

Reading your post makes me see( excluding unprovoken insults againts everybody who tries to disagree with you) useless wall of text in a form of a short essay, based on the thing that you couldn't ban somebody who got dc on loading screen. There is no rule for being disconnected from the game. Dc doesn't mean leaving nor de iure nor de facto.
So if your friend knows what does the argumentation means, you should both also know that you are supposed to actualy persueade somebody, not just shout around about your rethorical superiority because all your "valid" arguments are not based on actual facts.

Player must not unplug; Isn't that disconnecting? After a Disconnect, doesn't it say: "### Has left the game"? The rules on leaving (separate fact): Player must not leave.
Do you disagree on any of those points? If no:

Your argument is countered by Warcraft III itself. If you don't agree with Warcraft-logic, which would be comprehensible, you're free to go play LoL or HoN. Otherwise, you should at least recognize the imperfections of Warcraft and act accordingly.

That aside, I think you've misunderstood the whole purpose of the thread, namely the:

TL;DR and conclusion: Another day, another power-tripping mod, who has absolutely no business whatsoever being a ban mod, ball-busted. I have asked that you review the rules and mod pool before. Perhaps now it really is time to get to it?

Revieuwing the rules.
Saying disconnect isn't bannable; but plugpulling is? Seen the definitions of the words, that's retarded.

If one wants to continue the notion that disconnecting isn't bannable, it should be explicitly noted that it is like that.

The whole - is the ban legalized or not - is hyped by the mods/users who didn't see - or bother - to actually read the first post carefully. An example of this behavior is the discussion about the 200 ping - the screenshots are from another game, as stated in the first post.

@Outsider: Would you please quit that? It's annoying

[ArizaelCZ]

I am considering the term "leaving" due to the rules - not the w3 mechanism (in w3 mechanism kicking a player = leaving as well!). To backup my opinion that dc doesnt equal leaving i can add these:

1) Rules differs "leaving" and "unplugging". Why? To persecute players who tries to mask the leaving as disconnecting.
2) Moderators follow the precedent that players who lost unwillingly the connection shouldn't be punished. (example: Your score is fine, than your ping suddenly rise and you lagg out on timer.)

In summary i agree with current mods approach to not punish people who occasionaly loose connection, in advance right after the game start or even during the loading screen. Banning people who actualy want to play the game and can't prevent the damage done to it seems ilogical to me.