Author Topic: Suggestion for Stacking  (Read 12315 times)

Offline cen

  • Eurobattle.net Admin
  • WickedSick Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2166
  • Country: si
  • Karma: +280/-57
  • Lok'tar Ogar
  • Awards Lagabuse Legend LA High Staff [EPIC] MadBalls Tournament Winner [RARE] MVP Member [LEGENDARY]
    • View Profile
    • EuroBattle.net
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2021, 17:11 »
Why have a rule and waste staff time if you can block it? 80-20 is an approximate number we came up with after running a few lobby simulations which ernesto mentioned. After reset, this windows could actually be lowered because it will cut some off the top. All you need is to look at a few lobby examples and say, ok this one is stacking, this one is not and then adjust accordingly.


Integrating KDA into the balance would be interesting, but since I am not a math wiz I would need to see some practical examples and work from there. Show a lobby that is PSR balanced but not KDA balanced and propose actual numbers, that would be the basis.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 17:16 by cen »

Offline luke

  • ~evil~
  • Contributor
  • MonsterKill Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3837
  • Country: de
  • Karma: +482/-243
  • Server Account: FatAndViolent
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards Warlock Tour Winner [RARE] Pudge Wars Tournament Winner [RARE] Hacks staff member [RARE] Shadow Raze Tour Award [RARE] Best B&U mod of the month 3 times in a row [EPIC] 3rd Place Admins Cup [EPIC] Uther Party Tournament Winner [COMMON]
    • View Profile
    • My channel
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2021, 17:19 »
Quote
To have a good game game needsa good players.

This


If there are not enough good players then its either they dont play because rules, blocking, no games or they play to destroy bad players

Offline Happy..

  • Leader of the notorious Dota7 lobbying group
  • Pro Member
  • *
  • Posts: 305
  • Country: hr
  • Karma: +44/-64
  • Server Account: Fairy.
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards DotA 5v5 Tournament Winner [EPIC] LA Ladder #11-25 [EPIC] MadBalls Tournament Winner [RARE] 2v2 SHOM Tournament Winner [RARE] VIP Member [EPIC] 5v5 Xmas Tournament Winner [EPIC] Shadow Raze Tour Award [RARE] LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] Pudge Wars Tournament Winner [RARE]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2021, 18:59 »

And finally as a reply of your first question, good game means a 50+min, same level of kills, 2nd level towers destroyed and team played game to me.

@MarvinJunior thoughts?

Offline MarvinJunior

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 94
  • Karma: +14/-36
  • Awards Pudge Wars Tournament Winner [RARE] MadBalls Tournament Winner [RARE] LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] VIP Member [EPIC] DotA 5v5 Tournament Winner [EPIC] LA Ladder #11-25 [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2021, 19:47 »
A good game requries @grga_man

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

Offline komori

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2021, 00:03 »
+0 makes the game sad and no reason for good player to play. Focus of player is going for kills or creeps stats, and so other players from the same team can only suffer. Bad idea to prevent stacking with such solution , it was much better before this month. What good from this with splitting players , 2 maps , 3 groups of PSR? 1200 and 1500 PSR is not possible to play together and 1800 in 1500 PSR game is not possible anymore https://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php/topic,199958.0.html
Where is fun in this? 4 kills who died 9 times , top player and no PSR

And the final result is something like this https://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php/topic,199966.0.html

Offline TooShade

  • Pro Member
  • *
  • Posts: 467
  • Country: it
  • Karma: +43/-151
  • #1 Leaderboard
  • Server Account: TooShade
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] LA Ladder #2 [LEGENDARY] VIP Member [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2021, 01:09 »
Well I told by start this new system sucks, but not because it's anti-stack. Would be also fine... I play with friends much games I explained multiple times, but +0 is useless. Players play a 80+ minutes game and result is +0? I find it with no logic to be honest, why I should play a +0 game with no compensation? +1 was perfect, with +0 you don't give chance to players to reach top ladder.
Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Offline grga_man

  • Pro Member
  • *
  • Posts: 390
  • Country: ba
  • Karma: +91/-85
  • Server Account: Star_scream
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards 1v1 ARSHOM [RARE] LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] DotA 5v5 Tournament Winner [EPIC] Shadow Raze Tour Award [RARE] 1v1 AR Tour Winner [RARE] 5v5 Xmas Tournament Winner [EPIC] 2v2 SHOM Tournament Winner [RARE] Junior Tournament Member [RARE] Pudge Wars Tournament Winner [RARE] Mirana 1v1 Tournament Winner [RARE]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2021, 10:34 »
Well I told by start this new system sucks, but not because it's anti-stack. Would be also fine... I play with friends much games I explained multiple times, but +0 is useless. Players play a 80+ minutes game and result is +0? I find it with no logic to be honest, why I should play a +0 game with no compensation? +1 was perfect, with +0 you don't give chance to players to reach top ladder.

So why dont you play versus each other, its more amusing and challenging for both players, you can troll each other when you kill other "friend" and etc.
Its boring to play with "friends" and win 15min game, or im mistaken?
Btw. There are exceptions when you have friend like @Happy.. who is begging to play with you.

Offline iErnesto94

  • Honored member
  • HolyShit Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5125
  • Country: gr
  • Karma: +490/-396
  • Server Account: iErnesto94
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards LA Ladder #1 [LEGENDARY] VIP Member [EPIC] Lagabuse Legend LA High Staff [EPIC] Contributor [COMMON] Patreon Supporter [RARE] DotA 5v5 Tournament Winner [EPIC] Winner of 1 Photoshop Challenge Contest [COMMON] 1v1 Windrunner Tour Winner [RARE] B&U staff member [RARE] Tours staff member [RARE] GFX staff member [RARE] 3v3 SHOM Tournament Winner [RARE] 3rd Place Admins Cup [EPIC] Best Couple (2v2) Tour Winner [RARE] LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] Best B&U mod of the month [RARE] LA staff - Moderator IHRL Member [RARE]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2021, 13:15 »
In my opinion players should reach top spots by playing high psr games. For example I reached 1900 from playing 1700+ only but then I reached 1950 from 1400 games. That shouldnt be the case.

Offline Corristo

  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • Karma: +39/-19
  • Awards LA Ladder #11-25 [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2021, 10:33 »
See Cen,when I told you to consider integrating the KDA ratio into the !balance command, thus help the issue of stacking, then you told me I'm talking about two different problems.
Well, they are strongly connected to each other, this is why I said it.
So you need to form a good formula for !balance command first, to help fixing balance and stacking ultimately.
And the current PSR system in itself, is not enough. You must add somehow the KDA ratio into the formula too.
Something like psr is 50% + KDA50%. Divided into 2, will give you an individual player ''real in-game value"
Also KDA can be calculated by 33% Kill, 33%Death, and 34% Assist.

In the end, the PSR will show you how often a player wins a game, (must be 50%+ to gain PSR), and the KDA ratio will show how good that player really is in-game.

Some players would say only K/D ratio matters, but that is false. A lot of players like to play an assist role, and also players who farm all game, and let their teams down get low assist points, so making assist point all the more valuable.
A player who mostly plays support or tank role in-game, will have 4/9 K/D ratio, but maybe he has 15 assist/game. It doesn't mean that, that particular player is a feeder, but plays a supportive/tank-entry role.

The hard part is, to figure out how to create a formula, which integrates KDA ratio, rather then only the PSR.

The second part of my thoughts, is about making PSR point system more rewarding/punishing in case of unbalanced games.
The minimum point achievable should be 1 in any case, but the meantime, it shouldn't be -1 in case of loose, but let's say 10. This would discourage hosts of hard stacking.
On the other hand, if the other team wins, they should be rewarded with even more PSR (for defeating a hard stack against all odds). Instead of +8, +10 , you can double it depending on the % winrate prediction.

These are just my ideas, take what you like, and do what you can :)
I can only imagine how difficult can be to integrate some, or all of these into formulas...

Offline cen

  • Eurobattle.net Admin
  • WickedSick Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2166
  • Country: si
  • Karma: +280/-57
  • Lok'tar Ogar
  • Awards Lagabuse Legend LA High Staff [EPIC] MadBalls Tournament Winner [RARE] MVP Member [LEGENDARY]
    • View Profile
    • EuroBattle.net
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2021, 11:04 »
See Cen,when I told you to consider integrating the KDA ratio into the !balance command, thus help the issue of stacking, then you told me I'm talking about two different problems.
Well, they are strongly connected to each other, this is why I said it.
So you need to form a good formula for !balance command first, to help fixing balance and stacking ultimately.
And the current PSR system in itself, is not enough. You must add somehow the KDA ratio into the formula too.
Something like psr is 50% + KDA50%. Divided into 2, will give you an individual player ''real in-game value"
Also KDA can be calculated by 33% Kill, 33%Death, and 34% Assist.

In the end, the PSR will show you how often a player wins a game, (must be 50%+ to gain PSR), and the KDA ratio will show how good that player really is in-game.

Some players would say only K/D ratio matters, but that is false. A lot of players like to play an assist role, and also players who farm all game, and let their teams down get low assist points, so making assist point all the more valuable.
A player who mostly plays support or tank role in-game, will have 4/9 K/D ratio, but maybe he has 15 assist/game. It doesn't mean that, that particular player is a feeder, but plays a supportive/tank-entry role.

The hard part is, to figure out how to create a formula, which integrates KDA ratio, rather then only the PSR.

The second part of my thoughts, is about making PSR point system more rewarding/punishing in case of unbalanced games.
The minimum point achievable should be 1 in any case, but the meantime, it shouldn't be -1 in case of loose, but let's say 10. This would discourage hosts of hard stacking.
On the other hand, if the other team wins, they should be rewarded with even more PSR (for defeating a hard stack against all odds). Instead of +8, +10 , you can double it depending on the % winrate prediction.

These are just my ideas, take what you like, and do what you can :)
I can only imagine how difficult can be to integrate some, or all of these into formulas...
I am willing to experiment with adding KDA into the mix but as a starting point, I need to see a lobby where:
- A: the balance formula says the game is balanced, but it is actually not, here is why..
- B: the balance formula says the game is not balanced but it actually is, here is why..

Then you can start thinking what kind of measures would correct that situation, otherwise we might be fixing imaginary scenarios.

Offline Tyrande

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Country: 00
  • Karma: +2/-2
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2021, 11:26 »
Here we are again. So many pointless ideas wich not gonna change much. I don't really care about stackers/disbalance but there is only one way if u really want to pervent them and it is auto balance AND it must be done behind loading screen or when game start (formula no matter much here) with zero chances to swap,lock or whatever otherwise is just huge waste of time. I know it is barely possible but still would be fun to see Tooshades, Jojo_noob and company in that scenario.

Bad thing some real friends wouldn't be able to play in same team but well.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 11:35 by Tyrande »

Offline Confused-o_O-

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Country: 00
  • Karma: +14/-12
  • Server Account: Confused-o_O-
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] VIP Member [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2021, 11:58 »
See Cen,when I told you to consider integrating the KDA ratio into the !balance command, thus help the issue of stacking, then you told me I'm talking about two different problems.
Well, they are strongly connected to each other, this is why I said it.
So you need to form a good formula for !balance command first, to help fixing balance and stacking ultimately.
And the current PSR system in itself, is not enough. You must add somehow the KDA ratio into the formula too.
Something like psr is 50% + KDA50%. Divided into 2, will give you an individual player ''real in-game value"
Also KDA can be calculated by 33% Kill, 33%Death, and 34% Assist.

In the end, the PSR will show you how often a player wins a game, (must be 50%+ to gain PSR), and the KDA ratio will show how good that player really is in-game.

Some players would say only K/D ratio matters, but that is false. A lot of players like to play an assist role, and also players who farm all game, and let their teams down get low assist points, so making assist point all the more valuable.
A player who mostly plays support or tank role in-game, will have 4/9 K/D ratio, but maybe he has 15 assist/game. It doesn't mean that, that particular player is a feeder, but plays a supportive/tank-entry role.

The hard part is, to figure out how to create a formula, which integrates KDA ratio, rather then only the PSR.

The second part of my thoughts, is about making PSR point system more rewarding/punishing in case of unbalanced games.
The minimum point achievable should be 1 in any case, but the meantime, it shouldn't be -1 in case of loose, but let's say 10. This would discourage hosts of hard stacking.
On the other hand, if the other team wins, they should be rewarded with even more PSR (for defeating a hard stack against all odds). Instead of +8, +10 , you can double it depending on the % winrate prediction.

These are just my ideas, take what you like, and do what you can :)
I can only imagine how difficult can be to integrate some, or all of these into formulas...
I am willing to experiment with adding KDA into the mix but as a starting point, I need to see a lobby where:
- A: the balance formula says the game is balanced, but it is actually not, here is why..
- B: the balance formula says the game is not balanced but it actually is, here is why..

Then you can start thinking what kind of measures would correct that situation, otherwise we might be fixing imaginary scenarios.

Integrating KDA into the formula is a really bad idea. First of all, it encourages players to play for stats and pick heroes that are good at getting those stats and discourage picking supports that usually die but are essential for a good game.

For example my last 10 games with TA stats are 13.3/3.4/9.6 while my support Treant stats are 1.6/2/17.4 (it is easy to get assist since the buff is global and other supports do not get them that easy)

Offline Corristo

  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • Karma: +39/-19
  • Awards LA Ladder #11-25 [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2021, 12:42 »
See Cen,when I told you to consider integrating the KDA ratio into the !balance command, thus help the issue of stacking, then you told me I'm talking about two different problems.
Well, they are strongly connected to each other, this is why I said it.
So you need to form a good formula for !balance command first, to help fixing balance and stacking ultimately.
And the current PSR system in itself, is not enough. You must add somehow the KDA ratio into the formula too.
Something like psr is 50% + KDA50%. Divided into 2, will give you an individual player ''real in-game value"
Also KDA can be calculated by 33% Kill, 33%Death, and 34% Assist.

In the end, the PSR will show you how often a player wins a game, (must be 50%+ to gain PSR), and the KDA ratio will show how good that player really is in-game.

Some players would say only K/D ratio matters, but that is false. A lot of players like to play an assist role, and also players who farm all game, and let their teams down get low assist points, so making assist point all the more valuable.
A player who mostly plays support or tank role in-game, will have 4/9 K/D ratio, but maybe he has 15 assist/game. It doesn't mean that, that particular player is a feeder, but plays a supportive/tank-entry role.

The hard part is, to figure out how to create a formula, which integrates KDA ratio, rather then only the PSR.

The second part of my thoughts, is about making PSR point system more rewarding/punishing in case of unbalanced games.
The minimum point achievable should be 1 in any case, but the meantime, it shouldn't be -1 in case of loose, but let's say 10. This would discourage hosts of hard stacking.
On the other hand, if the other team wins, they should be rewarded with even more PSR (for defeating a hard stack against all odds). Instead of +8, +10 , you can double it depending on the % winrate prediction.

These are just my ideas, take what you like, and do what you can :)
I can only imagine how difficult can be to integrate some, or all of these into formulas...
I am willing to experiment with adding KDA into the mix but as a starting point, I need to see a lobby where:
- A: the balance formula says the game is balanced, but it is actually not, here is why..
- B: the balance formula says the game is not balanced but it actually is, here is why..

Then you can start thinking what kind of measures would correct that situation, otherwise we might be fixing imaginary scenarios.

Integrating KDA into the formula is a really bad idea. First of all, it encourages players to play for stats and pick heroes that are good at getting those stats and discourage picking supports that usually die but are essential for a good game.

For example my last 10 games with TA stats are 13.3/3.4/9.6 while my support Treant stats are 1.6/2/17.4 (it is easy to get assist since the buff is global and other supports do not get them that easy)

If you would read carefuly what I wrote, you would see, that it's the opposite. It would include ASSIST in the formula, which would be a huge boost for supportive/tank players.
Also this way, you could balance the players who have high psr but low stats. (they could get big psr being just lucky in the winning team).
Also encouraging players to play for stats since when it's bad?? What do you even mean its bad? players would pay attention to their stats, so they would stop throwing games.

Offline Confused-o_O-

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Country: 00
  • Karma: +14/-12
  • Server Account: Confused-o_O-
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards LA Ladder #4-10 [LEGENDARY] VIP Member [EPIC]
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2021, 13:06 »
See Cen,when I told you to consider integrating the KDA ratio into the !balance command, thus help the issue of stacking, then you told me I'm talking about two different problems.
Well, they are strongly connected to each other, this is why I said it.
So you need to form a good formula for !balance command first, to help fixing balance and stacking ultimately.
And the current PSR system in itself, is not enough. You must add somehow the KDA ratio into the formula too.
Something like psr is 50% + KDA50%. Divided into 2, will give you an individual player ''real in-game value"
Also KDA can be calculated by 33% Kill, 33%Death, and 34% Assist.

In the end, the PSR will show you how often a player wins a game, (must be 50%+ to gain PSR), and the KDA ratio will show how good that player really is in-game.

Some players would say only K/D ratio matters, but that is false. A lot of players like to play an assist role, and also players who farm all game, and let their teams down get low assist points, so making assist point all the more valuable.
A player who mostly plays support or tank role in-game, will have 4/9 K/D ratio, but maybe he has 15 assist/game. It doesn't mean that, that particular player is a feeder, but plays a supportive/tank-entry role.

The hard part is, to figure out how to create a formula, which integrates KDA ratio, rather then only the PSR.

The second part of my thoughts, is about making PSR point system more rewarding/punishing in case of unbalanced games.
The minimum point achievable should be 1 in any case, but the meantime, it shouldn't be -1 in case of loose, but let's say 10. This would discourage hosts of hard stacking.
On the other hand, if the other team wins, they should be rewarded with even more PSR (for defeating a hard stack against all odds). Instead of +8, +10 , you can double it depending on the % winrate prediction.

These are just my ideas, take what you like, and do what you can :)
I can only imagine how difficult can be to integrate some, or all of these into formulas...
I am willing to experiment with adding KDA into the mix but as a starting point, I need to see a lobby where:
- A: the balance formula says the game is balanced, but it is actually not, here is why..
- B: the balance formula says the game is not balanced but it actually is, here is why..

Then you can start thinking what kind of measures would correct that situation, otherwise we might be fixing imaginary scenarios.

Integrating KDA into the formula is a really bad idea. First of all, it encourages players to play for stats and pick heroes that are good at getting those stats and discourage picking supports that usually die but are essential for a good game.

For example my last 10 games with TA stats are 13.3/3.4/9.6 while my support Treant stats are 1.6/2/17.4 (it is easy to get assist since the buff is global and other supports do not get them that easy)

If you would read carefuly what I wrote, you would see, that it's the opposite. It would include ASSIST in the formula, which would be a huge boost for supportive/tank players.
Also this way, you could balance the players who have high psr but low stats. (they could get big psr being just lucky in the winning team).
Also encouraging players to play for stats since when it's bad?? What do you even mean its bad? players would pay attention to their stats, so they would stop throwing games.

you should be less concerned that someone might misunderstand you and pay more attention to what others are writing, I understand what you meant with assists and my example was not good with treant (it was just easier to count stats since I play with that hero) to show how big of a difference there is between support and carry stats. If you are playing only 1 role then your KDA stats will be consistent otherwise it will increase stats while you play carry and reduce them when you play support. Go count your 10 games with a carry role that you won and 10 games that you won with a support role.

If you don't see a problem with all 5 players picking carry roles or playing just for stats then there is no point even to try to make balanced games or to edit stats calculating formula.

Offline luke

  • ~evil~
  • Contributor
  • MonsterKill Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3837
  • Country: de
  • Karma: +482/-243
  • Server Account: FatAndViolent
    PSR: Loading
    Games: Loading
    Wins/Loses: Loading/Loading
    Hero K/D/A: Loading
    Creep K/D/N: Loading
    Show/hide more stats
  • Awards Warlock Tour Winner [RARE] Pudge Wars Tournament Winner [RARE] Hacks staff member [RARE] Shadow Raze Tour Award [RARE] Best B&U mod of the month 3 times in a row [EPIC] 3rd Place Admins Cup [EPIC] Uther Party Tournament Winner [COMMON]
    • View Profile
    • My channel
    • Awards
Re: Suggestion for Stacking
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2021, 13:29 »
Every year same discussions

also people already play for stats. You can see that nobody wants to start fight because he is afraid of dying