Author Topic: Unbalanced games  (Read 2472 times)

Offline territory23

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Unbalanced games
« on: January 12, 2021, 21:27 »
Hello everyone,

I was thinking the main purpose behind sanctions. It was all about ensuring the good game and punishing players for inappropriate behaviour.

For example if someone leaves the game on purpose, he gets a ban instantly. If someone ruins game, again he gets a ban. Generally, If someone prevents others to have good game, there is a sanction.

What about unbalanced games?  After PSR reset we all played unbalanced games but that is not my concern. I am talking about stacking.

Like the player we all know, said "stacking is not against rules". Yes but why? Stacking also ruins the game isn't it? People leave games, people stay afk, people start to feed on purpose in unbalanced games. What worse thing is, people SHOULD play to feed in games like these because if they stay afk they are banned.

You can say, you do not have to join unbalanced games. Why would someone have to check game balance?

Think of this, nobody has to check if a player is leaver (because you cant see it in lobby), nobody has to check if a player only plays in AP games and joined SD, etc. These are all affecting the game quality and you can not check it easily. Then why you should check if the game is really balanced or not?

I think there should be a sanction for stackers, and delete the unbalanced game logs affecting KDA stats and PSR.  It also includes stacking with pro players that has low PSR due to low number of games played. Otherwise, we can not stop having games with score like 50-10, 36-4 etc.

I am just offering some rules, please do not hesitate to offer yours.

Please, just think of this as a measurement to prevent bad games just like other rules.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 21:35 by territory23 »

Offline kna

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2021, 22:31 »
Yea , they release one more clown .....

Offline dumb0

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2021, 22:37 »
u can allways leave the lobby if u dont like how the game is balanced,thats how it works and its the best way imo.

Offline cen

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2021, 09:16 »
We are already discussing internally some ideas how to discourage stacking but we don't know yet what will be done. Any ideas are welcome.

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2021, 09:29 »
Yes, let`s discourage stacking in a team game, instead of promoting teaming up for everyone
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Online Confused-o_O-

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2021, 10:22 »
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 10:42 by Confused-o_O- »

Offline begin

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2021, 12:34 »
I think stacking should also be banned at The International

Offline cen

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2021, 17:19 »
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
1 and 2 are mostly the same thing. Primarily we want to discourage 3 while still somewhat allowing 1/2. Lowering PSR gain for unbalanced games would be one such solution. More ideas are needed.

Offline grga_man

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2021, 17:31 »
Yes, let`s discourage stacking in a team game, instead of promoting teaming up for everyone

I agree about this!

Online Confused-o_O-

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2021, 18:04 »
there are many reasons why people "stacking", here are some of them:

1. Players are friends and they do communicate outside of the game itself

2. Players are not friends, but they all want to be in the same team because:
a) they enjoy playing together and it improves their experience playing Dota
b) they are better than the rest of the lobby and by playing in the same team it is almost guaranteed to be an easy victory and good stats.

3. A player, most of the time game host, picks players to his team to get the advantage without those players consent.

the question is as an administration, what part do you want to address?
1 and 2 are mostly the same thing. Primarily we want to discourage 3 while still somewhat allowing 1/2. Lowering PSR gain for unbalanced games would be one such solution. More ideas are needed.

you could remove the ability for the game host to swap players and !start command would auto-balance teams. Give out rights to swap players/teams manually based on the request system. Remove rights if they abuse them.

Offline TooShade

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2021, 19:15 »
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 19:17 by TooShade »

Offline Corristo

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2021, 07:17 »
Lol tooshade giving advices on this topic is like asking a hard drinker about alcoholic problems. :D
You are on of the biggest stackers on this server abusing this shit for even 1 psr point.

Cen an idea for the problem: for games with ratio lets say above 65% vs 35%. The team with 65% shouldnt get any psr. Can be 70-80%, whatever you see fit.make them only loosr psr but not win any. They will stop doing this straight away.no gain no stackin.

Or 2nd idea: the psr system should punish this ratio much harder. Instead of loosing 1-2-3 psr they should loose 10-20-30 when 70-80-90 ratio and so on.so they have a super increased risk for winning 1 psr. Also increase the winning psr size for the other team. You choose the numbers ofc, i just gave the idea to punish and reward more both teams in case of unbalanced games.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 07:42 by Corristo »

Online Confused-o_O-

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2021, 07:21 »
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.

the guy trying to talk about game balance...

https://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6354374

maybe he is active and plays a lot, but the number of players you are losing/lost for trash players like him. They are not community members unless your community is based on preying on new players to feel better about your self. Why players like this are not banned?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 07:26 by Confused-o_O- »

Offline dumb0

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 10:03 »
Well, I think !rs command should be removed. Since it's the most thing where players are too focused on. The 90% (both in the lobby and in game) of players leave because percentuage is too high, indeed good games (but even when unbalanced) are with 50%+, 60%+ is already a problem and higher probability that someone leaves. The problem starts indeed, when someone arrives 1700 PSR, I think it's not fair only because he's high PSR, automatically should get 4 noobs 1300+ PSR for a good average. 1900+ PSR are another problem, but it's a different topic, you won't never play a good game with that PSR, always 60/70+% average, and most ways you will be kicked because "too pro" player.


I thinks should be structured in this way:
!Balance like shuffling players, but without any percentuage who gives average about PSR, after that "!Balance" command used, example always, LA26: The game has been balanced", without showing !rs command automatically, I think in this way we would have better games and no leavers. If you want take balanced games based on PSR, !rs command remove in my opinion is the best choise.


Examples:
Let's take some player with high K/D, with 2+/3+/4+ K/D vs 5 players 1900 PSR with normal K/D 1.2/0.9/2.1/...
It's not said only because they have 1900+ PSR they will win for sure, even with 99% average of PSR and 1% of other team with all pro K/D.
More probably will win team with all good K/D, but still percentuage is uselss. The problem is 80% of players in this server, don't know who that "avg 50%-50% or whatever it is" is made additioning all PSR and it comes out low + high for make a balance between them, or somewhere in between, if you want mine, remove the command !rs.
that can work only if we remove psr system or we make it static and not proggresive,lets say for wins +3 and for loses -2.
also that is not even a balance,its just a lucky shuffle like it is now.
my suggestion was to make balance based on the k/d ratio (to start at min 5 or 10 games,before that to have it 0)

Offline Corristo

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Re: Unbalanced games
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 10:35 »
that can work only if we remove psr system or we make it static and not proggresive,lets say for wins +3 and for loses -2.
also that is not even a balance,its just a lucky shuffle like it is now.
my suggestion was to make balance based on the k/d ratio (to start at min 5 or 10 games,before that to have it 0)
[/quote]

I would add to this the assist stats too. some players can farm all game, then win lategame having 10+ kills suddenly and 0 deaths, while letting down their team for 30 minutes.
So this is a viable option in my opinion too. Delete PSR system as it is, and introduce KDA system, based on the players SD rather than some points what you got from ''being in the better team''.
This way you would balance the games based on the players skills rather than some points which don't show any value.

Or if you want to keep the PSR system, so we can call a winner of the season and have a kind of ranking. But modify the !balance comand, so it uses the KDA stats not the PSR of each players.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:39 by Corristo »