Poll

Should bot force host to balance before game starts

Yes
10 (50%)
No
10 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: February 14, 2020, 19:34

Author Topic: Enforce balance before game start  (Read 1526 times)

Offline cen

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Enforce balance before game start
« on: February 10, 2020, 19:34 »
Survey

Offline luke

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2020, 19:49 »
The question is unclear.

Does enforcing balance means to type !balance before start or to not allow unbalanced games e.g. 20% vs 80%? If so which constraints?

Offline cen

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2020, 19:54 »
Game cannot start without !balance command and any changes in slots reset that condition.

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2020, 20:20 »
I refuse! No fun deer games at all just for imaginary balance, which is never truth.

For me, this is just a proposal in order to satisfy players with poisoned mind
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Online Hamza

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 20:37 »
I think it can be avoided by locking players

Offline ilikedat

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2020, 13:51 »
Survey
if there wont be !balance command based on players stats and not based on their psr i dont think that is useful.

Offline luke

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2020, 15:09 »
i want to point out that !balance doesnt always give fair balance. You can type it and get 60/40 and manually get 50/50

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2020, 15:17 »
I want to just add my dramatic 'balance is irrelevant at all, it never was' line. I did.

Stay deer !

Related info from our deer friend Commy: http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?topic=172753.msg608674#msg608674
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 15:18 by AntlermanXXL »
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Offline luke

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 15:28 »
Maybe give more psr for games with balance typed before start with no changes and less for normal games?

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 15:28 »
Maybe give more psr for games with balance typed before start with no changes and less for normal games?
I like
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Spoiler for Hiden:
10, 3rd places are mine, wew!

40:14 don_Kondo [Allies] olen olen
40:15 don_Kondo [Allies] olenishka
40:18 Hiatus [Allies] AHAH
40:21 don_Kondo [Allies] ya net olen
40:22 Hiatus [Allies] OLENISHKA
40:23 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAH
40:25 don_Kondo [Allies] ya mala myshka
40:28 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAHAH

Offline beastiary

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 21:20 »
promote stacking
http://www.twitch.tv/iplayqwerty - support stream, best music
LF support partner

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2020, 11:16 »
you could make unbalanced games excluded from the statistic, there for those who want to play with "friends" can keep playing.

imagine amounts of joined players (not befriended ones) in those lobbies, which games will be without stats affection
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Spoiler for Hiden:
10, 3rd places are mine, wew!

40:14 don_Kondo [Allies] olen olen
40:15 don_Kondo [Allies] olenishka
40:18 Hiatus [Allies] AHAH
40:21 don_Kondo [Allies] ya net olen
40:22 Hiatus [Allies] OLENISHKA
40:23 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAH
40:25 don_Kondo [Allies] ya mala myshka
40:28 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAHAH

Offline AntlermanXXL

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 11:22 »
went offtopic
Spoiler for Hiden:
I am not surprised by any conclusions that came from incomplete observations
Twitch streams
http://www.youtube.com/user/AloneMonaX

Spoiler for Hiden:
10, 3rd places are mine, wew!

40:14 don_Kondo [Allies] olen olen
40:15 don_Kondo [Allies] olenishka
40:18 Hiatus [Allies] AHAH
40:21 don_Kondo [Allies] ya net olen
40:22 Hiatus [Allies] OLENISHKA
40:23 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAH
40:25 don_Kondo [Allies] ya mala myshka
40:28 Hiatus [Allies] AHAHAHAH

Offline .SaLiH.

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 13:01 »
I didnt want to post but whatever

Lets look at previous "top 20 ladder" players and imagine a game with 1700+ psr
borilla, kealthas, deynro, fatality, wutch, fairy, liie and you can add or change with bunch of others like bolt, troll, ayds, thror, pastmistake, greatwolf etc.

These are the so called top 20 players if I am right. Lets imagine a game with full of these players (95% it happens to be few of them in same game-lobby).
In sentinel team:
-borilla
-fataliy+wutch (cos they play together)
- (you can insert some random of those or whatever)
-greatwolf
-pastmistake
Scourge team:
-denyro
-fairy
-bolt
-kealthas
-insert some random

So, here is the question, is this game balanced even with 1700-1800+PSR players?
My answer is, No.

Because I personally, more or less know their play-style and what they are capable of. However, (this is the most important part) it is according to me, to my observation, to my perception.

Some of those players "strategy" might connect while at the same time might not. And here starts the real problem, current host of the game, wants to balance game according to "his imagination" by saying this player is good and this player is shit. But again, its according to "his opinion".

So lets go back to "why it is not balanced" question. If we continue with our example above, team sentinel will have 2 supports, midlaner, carry and offlaner. (borilla or fatality mid, wutch will play either support or any role he likes, wolf will play some yakiro or cm, pastmistake maybe phoenix idk)

meanwhile team scourge will have deynro mid, fairy spectre or something, bolt the mega hooker, kealthas tiny, and some random who will be forced to play support while he is going to get creeps or idk buy items instead of wards.

While team sentinel has few players with higher winrate, team scourge has maybe less. For this reason its possible to say its unbalanced. HOWEVER, this doesnt mean that scourge will lose 100% for obvious reasons idk if I have to say but whatever I will.
Sentinel can have miscommunications (or throw the game) and lose the game easily. These players have different knowledge whether they are 1800 or 2000+psr. This is the part where it comes to "psr-rank is just a number" or as mister Antlerman pointed "imaginary balance".  (I dont really wanna go further with examples, I could use tons of with so called "Professional DotA2 Players")

As a conclusion I would say, I just pointed maybe 1 or 2 things that show balance is  imaginary, meanwhile there are many points which can be added. If you want to change balance system do it as you please, however, just dont do anything related with "playing with friends" or with its stereotype word "stacking".
Thanks
Quote
SO, IF YOU WILL BE IN THIS STATE EVER, GO AND FIGHT IT, LOL

Offline luke

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Re: Enforce balance before game start
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 13:11 »
Thank you for presenting a great example, Salih. Would be indeed good if we had all games like that. However, most games contain 1 or 2 of those players you mentioned and the rest are nabs, so balance might not have the same impact you are fearing.

I agree that psr balance isn't always good, first of all you need to make psr more representative of skill. Just as said 1800 psr is same as 2000 just 2000 plays more games. But balance with them will be totally screwed