Counter OP Heroes

[CoMMoN1337]

Oracle isn't OP, all he does is some fast damage and the reverse of grave dazzle spell, grave dazzle spell lets you take damage but doesn't let it drop below 1 hp, oracle doesn't let you take damage at all and suddenly you find yourself dead after the spell duration ends if you got attacked enough, pretty useless if you ask me.

Tips against him: As long as you are aware of this spell existing, you can just play over it, anticipate it, avoid it, bait it, or you can just have good map awareness or wards and know where he is and go silence him or chaindisable him so he won't do anything and kill him, easy target since low hp and pubbers don't get linken/bkb/eul on him, if he stays hidden, then yeah, then you may need to bait that spell (OR have sentries/gem available), after it's over, just go fight and easy win. Oh and don't be 1 hp early, get some hp against this guy and ur fine. Nothing else is requiered.

Kaolin can push allies 800 range away to safety or twards chased enemies from 3000 range with spell cooldown of 4 at lvl 4 of rolling boulder, which is just simply ridicolous (a spell that would be reasonable would be from 1000 range and 8 cooldown for example) no hero in the game has such ridicolous influence over such large distance (being safely away from any sort of realistical danger and being able to save allies every 4 seconds or making sure no one escapes by pushing allies twards enemies etc.). That being said, the rest of his spells are quite pathetic actually. Low damage low stun low silence.

His ulti magnetize does only 600 dps at lvl 3, unless you are in the presence of rocks, in which case you get damaged more.  However, to give an example, veno ulti is much stronger at lvl 16 with agha (even if you take the rocks into consideration for kaolin) with the only downside being that its unable to kill on its own, but taking into account the fact that poison sting at lvl 4 lasts 12 seconds and deals 20 damage per second and poison gale lasts 15.1 seconds with 60 damage every 3 seconds, that's not that big of an issue.

Again, Kaolin has only one ridicolous spell (rolling boulder), the rest is quite bad.

Tips against him: Find him, focus him/disable him whatever just don't let him continously control everyones position, early stay away from the line between him and a rock, always be aware he can jump in at any time etc. Not many tips against him or possibilities against him because he pretty much cannot be stopped at the moment with his 3000 distance influence IF the one who plays him has a brain, simply too far away from danger in any realistic scenario.
HOWEVER in these lil xpam pubs, you shouldn't have a problem finding him, jump on him with your team, have some long range initiators (clock for example) or disable him by coming from a hidden position from fog, have some disable to follow up and don't let him have time to get away, and suddenly your lil kaolin is useless like the rest of heroes when hate-focused.

The only thing about these heroes is that they have the capacity to be annoying. Unless there's a crazy carry doing lots of damage very fast, kaolin should always be the priority target in a fight where you have vision of him and can cast spells on him (IF he uses his spells properly, you can ignore him if he doesn't). Oracle isn't that big of an issue if you have some detection/or that spell is over.

[Jimmy]

Oracle isn't OP, all he does is some fast damage and the reverse of grave dazzle spell, grave dazzle spell lets you take damage but doesn't let it drop below 1 hp, oracle doesn't let you take damage at all and suddenly you find yourself dead after the spell duration ends if you got attacked enough, pretty useless if you ask me.

Tips against him: As long as you are aware of this spell existing, you can just play over it, anticipate it, avoid it, bait it, or you can just have good map awareness or wards and know where he is and go silence him or chaindisable him so he won't do anything and kill him, easy target since low hp and pubbers don't get linken/bkb/eul on him, if he stays hidden, then yeah, then you may need to bait that spell (OR have sentries/gem available), after it's over, just go fight and easy win. Oh and don't be 1 hp early, get some hp against this guy and ur fine. Nothing else is requiered.

Kaolin can push allies 800 range away to safety or twards chased enemies from 3000 range with spell cooldown of 4 at lvl 4 of rolling boulder, which is just simply ridicolous (a spell that would be reasonable would be from 1000 range and 8 cooldown for example) no hero in the game has such ridicolous influence over such large distance (being safely away from any sort of realistical danger and being able to save allies every 4 seconds or making sure no one escapes by pushing allies twards enemies etc.). That being said, the rest of his spells are quite pathetic actually. Low damage low stun low silence.

His ulti magnetize does only 600 dps at lvl 3, unless you are in the presence of rocks, in which case you get damaged more.  However, to give an example, veno ulti is much stronger at lvl 16 with agha (even if you take the rocks into consideration for kaolin) with the only downside being that its unable to kill on its own, but taking into account the fact that poison sting at lvl 4 lasts 12 seconds and deals 20 damage per second and poison gale lasts 15.1 seconds with 60 damage every 3 seconds, that's not that big of an issue.

Again, Kaolin has only one ridicolous spell (rolling boulder), the rest is quite bad.

Tips against him: Find him, focus him/disable him whatever just don't let him continously control everyones position, early stay away from the line between him and a rock, always be aware he can jump in at any time etc. Not many tips against him or possibilities against him because he pretty much cannot be stopped at the moment with his 3000 distance influence IF the one who plays him has a brain, simply too far away from danger in any realistic scenario.
HOWEVER in these lil xpam pubs, you shouldn't have a problem finding him, jump on him with your team, have some long range initiators (clock for example) or disable him by coming from a hidden position from fog, have some disable to follow up and don't let him have time to get away, and suddenly your lil kaolin is useless like the rest of heroes when hate-focused.

The only thing about these heroes is that they have the capacity to be annoying. Unless there's a crazy carry doing lots of damage very fast, kaolin should always be the priority target in a fight where you have vision of him and can cast spells on him (IF he uses his spells properly, you can ignore him if he doesn't). Oracle isn't that big of an issue if you have some detection/or that spell is over.

I was talking about early stage of game , all the other stuff you said , no comment . Good on all points , as due to Late Stage , whell , only thing about that " early nuke ability" is that those 2 can kill most of the heroes early , allowing friendly carry heroes to farm , or by assist or just buying time while spaming enemy carry's etc and taking their bounty.

About that ulti that is useless, again, it allows additional time for carrys to make more dps , or just additional spam while he is targeted and get some focus from enemy heroes , tanking some of spells/phy.dmg etc .


About Kaolin , u said all there is to be said there , my point was ( again i say ) on early stage
Letz say Magnus and Kaolin . U know what Kaolin does , and what Magnus do . It is insane combo potencial. And yes , refreshing that ulti ( With Good Timing ) can do additional dmg (combo on Mag)
As due to 1 on 1 , Kaolin have insane Game Control ability , just like u said . Clock's Cog is that Deadly for him , no argue there ..

Good Feedback Btw , Thanks

[CoMMoN1337]

only thing about that " early nuke ability" is that those 2 can kill most of the heroes early , allowing friendly carry heroes to farm , or by assist or just buying time while spaming enemy carry's etc and taking their bounty.

There are many heroes who can kill most heroes early, these 2 are nothing special, you just see them as special because they are easier to play, but in terms of actual killing potential they aren't too special.
Like I said, get hp (jangoo), get a wand, have a salve, and oracle won't kill you. Don't get caught in kaolin stone, and you're fine.

About that ulti that is useless, again, it allows additional time for carrys to make more dps , or just additional spam while he is targeted and get some focus from enemy heroes , tanking some of spells/phy.dmg etc .

Many heroes can buy time for carries to do damage, not only these 2. You aren't forced to fight the target which is "invulnerable", and you can still stun/hex the "invulnerable" target.

Letz say Magnus and Kaolin . U know what Kaolin does , and what Magnus do . It is insane combo potencial. And yes , refreshing that ulti ( With Good Timing ) can do additional dmg (combo on Mag).

There are many better combos than magnus and kaolin, magnus and sf for example, why wait for some damage per second (kaolin ulti) when you can blast them with instant damage from sf ulti.
Kaolin ulti isn't as strong as you think, it's just easy to do.

[Jimmy]

Yeah , But if one fail of those two , u'r both dead . Kaolin have ( i know itz not much ) 2.5 sec stun on 4th level as i recall, and Magnus can get 4-5 Hits(i randomed 4-5[it depends]) with that time and he could still have Dive available , because Kaolin can push him ( if good player ) into the action .
I have to say , that 1 sec delay on SF's ult is enough for someone to disable him ( i quess Hex/Stun/Whatever)
Offcourse with fast fingers , but it can be done .
And i think itz way better for team to have some backup option and extra possibilitys open than to rely on that instant dmg from Ulti and 1 raze that can hit all under magnus ulti , and thatz just "z" raze on 200 units away, cuz they all be sucked in.

[begin]

I need some help here ..

What is your stand on Countering OP early game Heroes , and by OP i mean the new school owners

Like Earth Spirit ( Kaolin ) and Oracle ( Nerif ) .. Esspecially 1vs1 on Middle lane

Because i noticed , even if i Play with them ( me playing them)
Or i'm up against them
It is a horror story to counter them . I know that Obsidian Destroyer can vs them to some point..
But 7th Level Nerif/Kaolin can Eat allmost any other hero
And i dont want to mention ganking ability on those two..
So , main question , what is your tactic to counter them..
I mean whitch hero/with what build[skill/item]
Anything will come in handy

i type -random and with any hero pwn your oracle/kaolin with ur poor gameplay.

[Jimmy]

Good for you

[Jimmy]

Thanks for feedback guys

Ill Lock this , it achived its point , i dont want spaming and stuff

Cheers