Author Topic: Change the !balance system  (Read 2031 times)

Offline jeandarc

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Change the !balance system
« on: July 05, 2017, 21:14 »
Its literally impossible to play a decent game once you reach 1800 psr. You end up with a team who have no clue what the fuck they are doing. I'm not saying that the enemy team gets better players but having retards in team is better than having full retards. It's literally impossible to win games no matter how hard you carry them.
I will show you some examples of the recent games i've lost, just look at my team's score. I'm not even picking the games, these are just casual games. I literally need to play on lower psr acc now cuz its impossible to win games like this.
I've lost 12 out of the last 14 games played, i can only gice up at this point. I dont remember this place being at worse state than it is now. I cant remember when was the last time la.com staff actually did something to improve the matchmaking system. You could at least make the games be balanced judging by players' kills/deaths/assissts stats.

you play support = your carries have 1 item min 50
you play carry = your teammates have 20 deaths each

http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049944
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049861
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049903
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049940


« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 21:22 by jeandarc »

Offline Deynro

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2017, 01:05 »
Good point Jean , this is so accurate , also the !balance command is shit when there is a 1800psr player , for example, if the host do the balance command and the overall psr will be 1640 - 1640 but the % will be like 60-40 , of course 60% cuz of the one with high psr and he has so many noobs in team.
I can also search in my game list for some examples , but Jean gave already enough , no need to do it.
Let hope you understand my point and what i mean.
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Offline Akuma

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2017, 01:16 »
I was thinking about your idea, and tryed looking at (K+A)/D as a possible factor to judge players.

Lets see some examples from the games you provided. BTW im not judging those games you had 1400 players in your team because they can't be taken seriously.

So lets start with: http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049903

your team:
nocturnal- has 3.7
diurnal-  has 3.7 
nakedwather has 3.3
jeandarc has 2.6
dunja has 2.4

other team:
propaganda has 5.5
simonster has 3.7
strategy has 2.8
zla_dobrila has 2.7
anti-brain has 2.5

1. This puts you on 8th place in this game considering this factor. Do you believe these 7 players are better than you?
2. This factor is to be taken with the fact, that people with less games will have higher average than people with more games (propaganda has only 30 games played) - this brings up no3
3. Imagine someone create new account and have this factor of 20 or higher after 1-2 games, how can it be taken into balance or even considered his average, when it can drop by double digits first game he feeds.

moving into another game: http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6049861

your team:
[bloodthirst] has 3.3
tihulu has 2.6
jeandarc has 2.6
marihuana024 has 2.4
marian-pl has 2.3

other team:
verybadperson has 3.5
hlr.sap has 2.9
^propalica^ has 2.8
[ne-ko] has 2.5
sevs has 2

Your place in this game was 5th or 6th, which would mean half of the players in this game were better/equal with you.
Judging those 2 games by kills/deaths/assists as you suggested would mean you were among lower players in these 2 games.
I don't think you are among lower players in this games having played with you many times, and I am sure you don't consider yourself lower as well.

To conclude: seeding players like this would probably bring even more imbalanced games where player with newer accounts would be seeded in top spots and that wouldn't be good.

PS: I consider you are not trolling with this topic, so if you have any better suggestions or ideas regarding this I would gladly listen to them.

Offline jeandarc

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2017, 01:52 »
The game obviously wont be balanced in the way you are taking players k/d ratio. There are players with 20 kills per game who played 3 games and they will be ranked above everyone like that. What i'm saying is that there should be a combination of players' psr plus k/d/a of the players to balance the game.

Offline Deynro

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Offline Akuma

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2017, 03:41 »
The game obviously wont be balanced in the way you are taking players k/d ratio. There are players with 20 kills per game who played 3 games and they will be ranked above everyone like that. What i'm saying is that there should be a combination of players' psr plus k/d/a of the players to balance the game.

And how would you manage to combine that, please give more information. Also you need like 15 games to reach 1650 psr and still have great (k+a)/d

How about these 2:
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6048727
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6048310


Dude you have 1300 and 1400 players in your team, I don't know what you expect of them, play games with higher psr players.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 05:06 by Akuma »

Offline CoMMoN1337

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 06:02 »
Your arguments are super invalid jean. It's the same for everyone else at your rating, which means there is perfect balance.

The ones who are better than the others, shall win their games, the ones who aren't, shall not, which is exactly the point of a ladder, the best go up, the rest go down.

Edit: And to sum things up, in case you're missing my point, stop whining about it being difficult and accept the challenge.
If you do what you're currently doing, you don't even deserve to climb.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 06:27 by CoMMoN1337 »

Offline Deynro

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2017, 13:22 »
The game obviously wont be balanced in the way you are taking players k/d ratio. There are players with 20 kills per game who played 3 games and they will be ranked above everyone like that. What i'm saying is that there should be a combination of players' psr plus k/d/a of the players to balance the game.

And how would you manage to combine that, please give more information. Also you need like 15 games to reach 1650 psr and still have great (k+a)/d

How about these 2:
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6048727
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6048310


Dude you have 1300 and 1400 players in your team, I don't know what you expect of them, play games with higher psr players.

You cant find a 1600+ game , they are so rarely , its like 2-3 per day.
Whatever , close the topic , we're going nowhere.
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Offline _xpam_

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 15:30 »
i shit myself deepshit jean

Offline sevs

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2017, 20:02 »
jean is noob!

Offline Renovatio

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2017, 21:01 »
This can be done. Is just about finding the right formula and implement it. I dont know how the current one is scripted but if conditions can be added then it can be improved.

As Akuma said, the number of games counts. We all start with some stats that not always represent our skill but in time, playing more games, those stats come to a saturation that is more representative. So, the number of games should be taken in consideration.

PSR must be a variable. You suggested that (K+A)/D should also be one. Akuma pointed the fact that the number of games should count too.

The formula can be this: (K+A)/D * number_of_games (current season) + PSR = user var for balance
The problem is that you will have players with 1 game and players with maybe 1000 games. You cant have a balance in such cases.
This can be somoehow solved by creating a variable for the number of games where the number is controlled with a constant depending on some conditions.
So, something like this can be done:
For 1-10 games > x = number of games * 10 (max 100)
For 11-50 games > x = number of games * 8 (max 400)
For 51 - 100 games > x = number of games * 6 (max 600)
For 101 - 200 games > x = number of games * 4 (max 800)

Ofc, the multipliers picked by me arent to good but you get the point. The idea is to make that x have a smaller range so instead of having to calculate a guy with 1 game and a guy with 1000 games the calculation gets done between something like 100 and 500, so the numbers wont be to different and mess up the balance. You need only good conditions that can get fair values. The balance would still be imperfect but will be better than it is now.

Before mocking me pls think how that formula can be improved, what conditions can be set to get the user's var more accurate and in a smaller closed range that all players can get in. It looked like a serious feedback from you so I replied serious. Mock me and I'm out of this topic.

Final formula: (K+A)/D * x + PSR = user's variable for balance
Current user variable for balance calculation is his PSR, ofc. Just wanted to make sure you understand what I called "user's variable".

Also, I would suggest setting the minimum psr that ca be won to 1 (-0). Since we have fewer players and 1600+ games arent so often as before most of the guys with high psr play most of their games without winning PSR.
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Offline AGENT

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2017, 21:32 »
Also, I would suggest setting the minimum psr that ca be won to 1 (-0). Since we have fewer players and 1600+ games arent so often as before most of the guys with high psr play most of their games without winning PSR.
That is already done. Bot says +0/-0, but actually is +1/-1.

Offline _xpam_

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2017, 22:55 »
i did not read . you aRe just nabs  :y: :y:

Offline Zmaj

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2017, 11:38 »
i totally agree with jean, for instance i played chen perfectly and i had 4 feeders (including 1 leaver), i can play tiny and win every game but what is the point of it im not want to be first on ladder i want decent or normal game...
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6050467
but i wouldnt be mad if they all have 1400 psr but 3 of them had 1600+ so...

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Re: Change the !balance system
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2017, 12:57 »
Did not read entire thread, but wanted to say that ShitCup got some index:
(Kills * 2 + Assists) / Deaths * 2

ShitCup does not use this index tho

We can define the function that can calculate 'player`s index' as desired, we can vote for best function
And probably cen will agree with it and implement this one, balancing according to this calculated index
So game will be more balanced