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General Section => General Discussions => Topic started by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 09, 2018, 18:57

Title: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 09, 2018, 18:57
Hey there, sorry for disturbing you but i have something to say.
Our ranking system needs an update....i mean there are 1600/1650 psr players that are clueless noobs, they get 1650 psr with bad scores and when game is balanced by the host you can get ''high psr noobs'' with you and GG, all i want to say is that balancing the games here on this server sucks.
Can you try another way of ranking the players....maybe by their stats and wins only?
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 09, 2018, 19:14
I agree stats are misleading in 90% cases but there are some hints to tell if a player is decent, check his deny creeps, if he has 8+ per game it means he is a professional. Another hint is when one has'ibalgin' letters in his nickname, that means it's a wannabe professional.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 09, 2018, 20:18
i've played a lot of games where the players have more than 1650 psr, host balance the game and on your team you have high psr players that are actually very bad (many of them are arrogant retards and have no sense of the game) and on sentinel there are high psr players that are actually very good (you can check by the stats) and its 50/50, but is it 50/50 its up to you to decide, anyway i end up losing the game as i expected.
PS: when you play a game with low psr players, then host balance the game and in your team you have 1450 psr players with 3-4 kills per game and the pick carry and fuck up, but on the other team there are 1450 psr players that have 6kills 6deaths, who do you think will win?
Ok i wont comment anymore, just take my opinion seriously, thx and bye.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 09, 2018, 20:25
The best you can do is check each player's stats in lobby and decide if you wanna play like that. Hosting your own game does the job.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Jímmy on December 09, 2018, 21:20
@BaKiBaKiBaKi
Do u have any suggestions or ideas on how would you rank the players, if it makes sense , we can discuss it without problems.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: tehnika8x8 on December 09, 2018, 22:01
Is not this just a game? How do you expect someone to learn the game if you are constantly kick him from game. Because of the players who play for PSR and not from FUN this game will die soon because there are no new users. Only because of the arrogant and confident players. Dont forget that this is a game where several factors depend. You need a perfect computer and with this perfect internet, keyboard, mouse, that nobody bothered you from the typed, etc. Not all of them have that, dont forget. We dont live in the perfect world. Learn to play for fun, and for others dont worry about those who are in charge of it.
Keep DotA alive, so much of me  :)
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 09, 2018, 23:01
I agree it became a problem lately, we need to do something with it finally. If you have suggestion, post. Otherwise i got some idea, will make calculations and create topic for admins when i have time
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: efko.aqw on December 10, 2018, 02:28
1st thing which will be changed in near future should be longer autobans on newer accounts and short autobans on old accounts. About ranking system, I think whatever system we pick, someone or everyone will be unsatisfied  :michael jackson:
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 10, 2018, 06:45
Extra psr if you have 15+ denied creeps.
Minus psr if you have less than 5 denied creeps.
Extra psr if you have 22+ assists.
Minus psr if you have 12+ deaths.
Extra psr if you have less than 6 deaths.
Minus psr if you have less than 5 kills.
No extra psr to those who have a lot of kill cause people will only play for kills.
Extra psr if you have bought 8+ wards.
I know that all of this is not that much related to my comments above but this can change the game, with all these extra psr people could actually do some small things in the game that can lead to a victory and players will be ranged by the stats they make.
Just my opinion, dont judge me :)))
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Renovatio on December 10, 2018, 07:46
I think that's to hard to implement and open to bugs. A better way would be to modify the !balance formula in order to include stats (currently its variables are only the players' psr). It was discussed before. I proposed something. The topic should be somewhere here, in general board.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Jímmy on December 10, 2018, 07:54
I think that's to hard to implement and open to bugs. A better way would be to modify the !balance formula in order to include stats (currently its variables are only the players' psr). It was discussed before. I proposed something. The topic should be somewhere here, in general board.
Balancing the game considering Kills,Deaths,Assists , and creeps. Thats good , real good.
Extra psr if you have 15+ denied creeps.
Minus psr if you have less than 5 denied creeps.
Extra psr if you have 22+ assists.
Minus psr if you have 12+ deaths.
Extra psr if you have less than 6 deaths.
Minus psr if you have less than 5 kills.
No extra psr to those who have a lot of kill cause people will only play for kills.
Extra psr if you have bought 8+ wards.
I know that all of this is not that much related to my comments above but this can change the game, with all these extra psr people could actually do some small things in the game that can lead to a victory and players will be ranged by the stats they make.
Just my opinion, dont judge me :)))
There are different Roles. What u suggested is plausable for Supports. But not even fully for them, since in "good" games, if you can save your carry [you're playing any other role] you should. That means dying instead of him.
Also expected Carry to Ward. Etc Etc. You get what i want to say.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 10, 2018, 12:52
Think anything, without auto host system it wont be reliable
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 10, 2018, 16:33
And you want autohost system?
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 10, 2018, 16:48
And you want autohost system?
I only want updated map I dont cate about the rest just saying Solo Q is necessary if you want a balanced ladder
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 10, 2018, 16:49
Don't know how to make a  balanced ladder, but i think i know how to make a balanced game
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Jímmy on December 10, 2018, 16:53
Don't know how to make a  balanced ladder, but i think i know how to make a balanced game
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0NwHXQy3kUSfFF60/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 11, 2018, 20:10
@BaKiBaKiBaKi  @begin  @FataLity-  @Deynro @Jimmy

Can you search for games where the balance was 50 : 50 and the game itself wasn't balanced? I need test cases for new formula i started working on
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Jímmy on December 11, 2018, 20:35
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6168130

Random game, this guy has 1700 rating [ top 50 ] and he sucked so hard with Venomancer it was totally awfull.
I mean, 1-13 and just 92 creeps in 50 minut game.
Then this mega amazing person Jimmy came and destroyed them with well played Puck.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Jímmy on December 11, 2018, 20:38
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6168130

Random game, this guy has 1700 rating [ top 50 ] and he sucked so hard with Venomancer it was totally awfull.
I mean, 1-13 and just 92 creeps in 50 minut game.
Then this mega amazing person Jimmy came and destroyed them with well played Puck.
Also last 17 games he played with different heroes and performed very well in all roles. We need more players like that  :y:
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Deynro on December 11, 2018, 21:25
@BaKiBaKiBaKi  @begin  @FataLity-  @Deynro @Jimmy

Can you search for games where the balance was 50 : 50 and the game itself wasn't balanced? I need test cases for new formula i started working on

@luke
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6167667
08:40      Sentinel avg. PSR: 1590(49% to win), Scourge avg. PSR: 1591(51% to win)

This is the perfect example, easiest game of my life.

Also if you are 1800+ the balance is really completely shit, practically you get the worst team and still the winning chances (%) are way higher for you, making the games so unbalanced, dota is a team game, you can't win alone vs 5 decent players.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 11, 2018, 21:29
The more examples the better. Also, you just can't balance game like you want no matter what you do if you let random people join. Max what can be done is to make !balance see who is good and who isn't and put equal amount of good and bad players in both teams
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 11, 2018, 22:04
@BaKiBaKiBaKi  @begin  @FataLity-  @Deynro @Jimmy

Can you search for games where the balance was 50 : 50 and the game itself wasn't balanced? I need test cases for new formula i started working on
Any game where a 1900 pro player creates a new 1500 acc and logs a game. 50 : 50 means his team is more likely to win.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 11, 2018, 22:05
Post some concrete links please
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: na_kacu on December 11, 2018, 22:14
1st thing which will be changed in near future should be longer autobans on newer accounts and short autobans on old accounts. About ranking system, I think whatever system we pick, someone or everyone will be unsatisfied  :michael jackson:

That is really brilliant idea. If ppl would stop making all time new acc's the ladder would eventually establish and balancing or implementing anything would make sense.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: Deynro on December 11, 2018, 22:16
Deja vu, check this, might help.

http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?topic=179970.msg642065#msg642065
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 12, 2018, 09:31
Aight boys, after hours of calculations and brainstorming with my fellas here is my formulation that will save eurobattle.

There will be 2 types of games, autohosted or hosted with hand, auto hosted games will have psr limits such as 1400-1500, 1500-1600 These games will balance itself and start when full. PSR +/- will be constant +5/-5 and also self hosted games it will also be +1/-1.
Think of it like ranked/unranked matchmaking of dota2. In these ranked games people will try to do their best to win and other games will be more chill.

There might be some game limit to join these ranked games such as 25 games. After 25 games people will either play in 1400-1500 or 1500-1600 games so even then you will have some balance since you discrite players in groups. Also this will keep people on their main account.

Another thing is getting rid of kill/death, right now its important since getting high psr is very easy but it leads people to not play supportive roles. Consider my friend
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=player;sid=1;nick=greatwolf.;tab=ladder-stats;lpage=1;cpage=1

He is a good support player but since he play support he has bad kill/death and in game people flame him over his stats when he makes some mistake. Detailed stats should be avaliable on web but I dont think its a must in game !sd
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 12, 2018, 09:42
So you are saying that you need to have 25 games to enter 1400-1500 games, and then if you gain 1501 you can play 1500-1600 autohosted and autobalanced games?
But first of all you must play self hosted games in order to get to that new rank system?
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 12, 2018, 10:24
So you are saying that you need to have 25 games to enter 1400-1500 games, and then if you gain 1501 you can play 1500-1600 autohosted and autobalanced games?
But first of all you must play self hosted games in order to get to that new rank system?

yes first few games are to decrease leave rate/new accounts and have some kind of discrimination between players 1400-1500 or 1500-1600, In first 25 game people will have something between 1475 - 1525 so they will either play in 1400-1500 or 1500-1600
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 12, 2018, 11:32
last 5-6 weeks i've seen and played with a lot of new accounts that have 3-7 games, and they had 2-4 kills per game (and vs me i have a new account that has 12:1 with 16 kills 4 deaths and picks tinker and APOCALIPSE).....i know being noob is not a crime but still its a old game, you have youtube channels to learn and a lot other things and since there are not a lot of games everytime i enter a game there is 2 or 3 guys with that stats and ofc they pick carry, i know thats not a crime or banable or you cant do anything about that , but its fucking frustrating....8 out of 10 games there are 2-3 players that makes you wanna delete w3 seriously....1-2 years ago things were a little bit different.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 12, 2018, 15:51
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6168310
CHECK THIS GAME , CHECK THIS TRAX , AND NOBODY WOULD EVEN KICK , THEY JUST FEED ON HIM , IF THIS IS DOTA THEN MY NAME IS JOHN TRAVOLTA !
Every second game is like that , every second game , is this posible !?!??!
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: cen on December 12, 2018, 17:12
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6168310
CHECK THIS GAME , CHECK THIS TRAX , AND NOBODY WOULD EVEN KICK , THEY JUST FEED ON HIM , IF THIS IS DOTA THEN MY NAME IS JOHN TRAVOLTA !
Every second game is like that , every second game , is this posible !?!??!

We can't change people.   :hm:
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 12, 2018, 17:28
Quote
There will be 2 types of games, autohosted or hosted with hand, auto hosted games will have psr limits such as 1400-1500, 1500-1600 These games will balance itself and start when full. PSR +/- will be constant +5/-5 and also self hosted games it will also be +1/-1.
Think of it like ranked/unranked matchmaking of dota2. In these ranked games people will try to do their best to win and other games will be more chill.

There might be some game limit to join these ranked games such as 25 games. After 25 games people will either play in 1400-1500 or 1500-1600 games so even then you will have some balance since you discrite players in groups. Also this will keep people on their main account.

Another thing is getting rid of kill/death, right now its important since getting high psr is very easy but it leads people to not play supportive roles. Consider my friend
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=player;sid=1;nick=greatwolf.;tab=ladder-stats;lpage=1;cpage=1

There are many problems with it. What im trying to do isn't hard to implement but your suggestion requires:
1) Implementing autohosting on our tricky custom ghost++ bot
2) Make it distinguish between ranked and non ranked games
3) Setting hard limits which is never good itself and will require the total review of the ranking system
4) Getting rid of K/D always was a hard decision, maybe it could be replaced with K+A/D as compromise but right now i wouldn't trust myself to ask to change it

I think your idea is good but i don't see how it can be done right now, instead we could proceed step by step over time.

As first, i want to change the balance function so it can find good players better insted of just checking psr (like now), in theory it should lead to more balanced games, thus starting the process of fixing the ladder.

Main problems regarding balance i see right now are:

1) Low skilled high psr players coming in average psr games (1700 in average 1600 game). He would be placed with lower psrs and since he is bad the game will be unbalanced and quickly lost

2) High skilled low psr player in average/high psr game (1500 in 1600-1700), for example someone's friend who came to give boost. Since he has extremely low psr (relatively) he will be placed with higher psrs and have far more chances of winning.

What i want to do is to get rid of such situations (placing a weak high psr player with stronger players and high skilled low psr player with weaker players) which should be a big improvement alone and hopefully won't require a lot of messing with the bot code.

I still need recent unbalanced games for which the current balance said 50% - 50% to run tests

Other problems, like new accounters should be met with other measures
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 12, 2018, 17:29
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=game;gid=6168310
CHECK THIS GAME , CHECK THIS TRAX , AND NOBODY WOULD EVEN KICK , THEY JUST FEED ON HIM , IF THIS IS DOTA THEN MY NAME IS JOHN TRAVOLTA !
Every second game is like that , every second game , is this posible !?!??!

I totally agreee with you, kunkka failed hard, buying orchid like a reto...
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: BaKiBaKiBaKi on December 12, 2018, 17:32
i was kunka, since we had 2-3 carry heroes i went for supporting , i did orhid to stop naix first spell and yurnero spells...and i actually did a lot of times but who cares...
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 12, 2018, 17:35
Haha i' just trolling you I am God you know ;)
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 12, 2018, 18:11
Quote
There will be 2 types of games, autohosted or hosted with hand, auto hosted games will have psr limits such as 1400-1500, 1500-1600 These games will balance itself and start when full. PSR +/- will be constant +5/-5 and also self hosted games it will also be +1/-1.
Think of it like ranked/unranked matchmaking of dota2. In these ranked games people will try to do their best to win and other games will be more chill.

There might be some game limit to join these ranked games such as 25 games. After 25 games people will either play in 1400-1500 or 1500-1600 games so even then you will have some balance since you discrite players in groups. Also this will keep people on their main account.

Another thing is getting rid of kill/death, right now its important since getting high psr is very easy but it leads people to not play supportive roles. Consider my friend
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=player;sid=1;nick=greatwolf.;tab=ladder-stats;lpage=1;cpage=1

There are many problems with it. What im trying to do isn't hard to implement but your suggestion requires:
1) Implementing autohosting on our tricky custom ghost++ bot
2) Make it distinguish between ranked and non ranked games
3) Setting hard limits which is never good itself and will require the total review of the ranking system
4) Getting rid of K/D always was a hard decision, maybe it could be replaced with K+A/D as compromise but right now i wouldn't trust myself to ask to change it

I think your idea is good but i don't see how it can be done right now, instead we could proceed step by step over time.

As first, i want to change the balance function so it can find good players better insted of just checking psr (like now), in theory it should lead to more balanced games, thus starting the process of fixing the ladder.

Main problems regarding balance i see right now are:

1) Low skilled high psr players coming in average psr games (1700 in average 1600 game). He would be placed with lower psrs and since he is bad the game will be unbalanced and quickly lost

2) High skilled low psr player in average/high psr game (1500 in 1600-1700), for example someone's friend who came to give boost. Since he has extremely low psr (relatively) he will be placed with higher psrs and have far more chances of winning.

What i want to do is to get rid of such situations (placing a weak high psr player with stronger players and high skilled low psr player with weaker players) which should be a big improvement alone and hopefully won't require a lot of messing with the bot code.

I still need recent unbalanced games for which the current balance said 50% - 50% to run tests

Other problems, like new accounters should be met with other measures

just finding ideas we all know noone gonna implement anything on a server which updating map takes weeks
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: begin on December 12, 2018, 18:15
Quote
There will be 2 types of games, autohosted or hosted with hand, auto hosted games will have psr limits such as 1400-1500, 1500-1600 These games will balance itself and start when full. PSR +/- will be constant +5/-5 and also self hosted games it will also be +1/-1.
Think of it like ranked/unranked matchmaking of dota2. In these ranked games people will try to do their best to win and other games will be more chill.

There might be some game limit to join these ranked games such as 25 games. After 25 games people will either play in 1400-1500 or 1500-1600 games so even then you will have some balance since you discrite players in groups. Also this will keep people on their main account.

Another thing is getting rid of kill/death, right now its important since getting high psr is very easy but it leads people to not play supportive roles. Consider my friend
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?action=gameinfo;sa=player;sid=1;nick=greatwolf.;tab=ladder-stats;lpage=1;cpage=1

There are many problems with it. What im trying to do isn't hard to implement but your suggestion requires:
1) Implementing autohosting on our tricky custom ghost++ bot
2) Make it distinguish between ranked and non ranked games
3) Setting hard limits which is never good itself and will require the total review of the ranking system
4) Getting rid of K/D always was a hard decision, maybe it could be replaced with K+A/D as compromise but right now i wouldn't trust myself to ask to change it

I think your idea is good but i don't see how it can be done right now, instead we could proceed step by step over time.

As first, i want to change the balance function so it can find good players better insted of just checking psr (like now), in theory it should lead to more balanced games, thus starting the process of fixing the ladder.

Main problems regarding balance i see right now are:

1) Low skilled high psr players coming in average psr games (1700 in average 1600 game). He would be placed with lower psrs and since he is bad the game will be unbalanced and quickly lost

2) High skilled low psr player in average/high psr game (1500 in 1600-1700), for example someone's friend who came to give boost. Since he has extremely low psr (relatively) he will be placed with higher psrs and have far more chances of winning.

What i want to do is to get rid of such situations (placing a weak high psr player with stronger players and high skilled low psr player with weaker players) which should be a big improvement alone and hopefully won't require a lot of messing with the bot code.

I still need recent unbalanced games for which the current balance said 50% - 50% to run tests

Other problems, like new accounters should be met with other measures

just finding ideas we all know noone gonna implement anything on a server which updating map takes weeks
You made a mistake therefore your argument is invalid
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 12, 2018, 18:22
If i though that it can't be done on server where it takes 2 weeks to upload map, i wouldn't waste my time with it at all, you can trust me with that

And map is uploaded on safelist bots, you can check there for testing
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: FataLity- on December 12, 2018, 19:43
If i though that it can't be done on server where it takes 2 weeks to upload map, i wouldn't waste my time with it at all, you can trust me with that

And map is uploaded on safelist bots, you can check there for testing

Yeah we need to test the map 10000 people tested on rgc with 10 people "if" we can find for a ss game
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 12, 2018, 20:07
Don't think that eurobattle has good relations and trust with dracolich, from here comes waiting time
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 29, 2018, 14:06
(https://i.ibb.co/vxQvwr8/123.png)

Check if there is no mistake. @Renovatio @Deynro @fatality

low/high refer to psr, noob/pro to skill.

For example, low pro vs low noobs mean a match in which there is a good player with low psr in game with bad players with low psr. The game can't see that he is a good player since balance is done by psr only which lets smurfs collect easy wins and farm stats on weaker players abusing the ranking system

PSR distribution seems fair for me, only that weak high psr players slowly lose their psr messing up the ranking. The main problem is the balance function itself
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: jeandarc on December 29, 2018, 14:34
This thread was created by a bad toxic player who thinks that every time he loses it's his team's fault. I'm kind of surprised that so many people got baited into his nonsense to be completely honest.
You need to realize that high psr players can't just play a game with players equal to their psr any time of the day they want duo to the number of players online at the time, therefore they either create a new account and play "low" games until they eventually find a decent game or they get kicked from "low" games if they play with their main acc cuz ppl from those "low" games don't want anyone with 300 psr above them.
Players will never be satisfied with the system of the ranked games be that big companies such as Valve, Blizzard, Riot etc. or lagabuse.com
I just don't think that these "low" players will ever understand that good players NEVER want to play with you, they just don't have a choice, other good players aren't online so they have no other option but to play a game with toxic players such as the guy who started this thread thinking it's his team's fault for every game he's lost.
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on December 29, 2018, 14:45
There is nothing to do about it, but aren't games like that unbalanced right now? What is the point of playing a game if you get rolled over with 60 0 score. Intention is to fix this while not extremely punishing good players and not fuck up the ranking
Title: Re: Try another ranking system
Post by: luke on February 15, 2019, 17:19
Forgot to say, i finished my task some time ago. Its only question of time when it will be reviewed by the admins and implemented