About DotA 6.88

[AGENT]

My monitor is 22 inches and I am using cam only because of that. Pics are for default cam and for cam 2300.

Spoiler for default:

Spoiler for 2300:

[luke]

Guess one has to take an actual photo of his monitor with dota on it, pretty hard to judge based on screenshots only

[guest49825]

Ehm, for your screenshots there is no problem with playing at 1650 camera seems
I have absolutely same vision, lul

Sometimes i`m camhacking for 1700, but it is just when i`m tired and give zero fucks, simplifying things just to play with 99% loaded brain after work.

But most of the time, playing with vision like on your first screenshot - is completely fine, wtf

Guess one has to take an actual photo of his monitor with dota on it, pretty hard to judge based on screenshots only

Yeash

[guest49825]

Well, looks like it platform-related garbage, even the staff does not consider 3rd party tools as hacks. So deer, having some programming knowledge, can write some monstrous tool, like DreamDota with D2 Open.AI, with everything which is "not bannable" here and just auto-play games, while eating/watching films/working. Great, guys, great. I`ll get it to work in few months then, then will even stream it;

No idea where this dumb mass opinion came from

DLG vouch league was completely fine without hotkeys/camhacks/maphacks, thats it.

[luke]

-cam is an inbuilt feature of dota, not even a bug or a third party tool. Should we maybe give bans for picking unbalanced heroes too?

w3l.exe is a hack itself, why not ban for using it as well?

Gproxy.exe is a hack which gives advantage to people using it by letting them reconnect.

Lagabuse.com bots are configured for lower delays, compared to official servers, also unfair.

[AGENT]

Just leave the cam option, cuz 80% of dying server is using it or make range 1650-2300 kappa.

[Akuma]

The problem (which everyone fails to explain) on big screen is distance.

Moving your mouse from point A to point B, with or without using cam.

I'll give an example,
kja playing on 15" monitor needs to move mouse 7cm to cover such distance.
Agent playing on 22" monitor needs to move mouse 10cm to cover that same distance.

Means kja is at advantage since he will react few ms faster.
Now if agent uses cam to "smaller" that distance - he will see more of the map, than kja does - means Agent gets advantage.

There isn't a perfect solution honestly.

[guest49825]

-cam is an inbuilt feature of dota, not even a bug or a third party tool. Should we maybe give bans for picking unbalanced heroes too?

-cam is an inbuilt feature of dota.
Like in that discord channel, you miss the context again. Begin was asking me in general, how is it unfair? We were talking with him about camhack at all, not that in-game featured one.
The fact hack is now built-in is wrong, because it was considered as a hack before including it in the map. But not this is a feature, lul.
And, FYI, even Dracol1ch's team calls it camhack, which proves the fact they understand its hacky gist.
Balanced/unbalanced heroes were always inbuilt feature of dota and it is because of lack of balance, obviously.

w3l.exe is a hack itself, why not ban for using it as well?

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

Gproxy.exe is a hack which gives advantage to people using it by letting them reconnect.

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

Lagabuse.com bots are configured for lower delays, compared to official servers, also unfair.

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

[guest49825]

The problem (which everyone fails to explain) on big screen is distance.

Moving your mouse from point A to point B, with or without using cam.

I'll give an example,
kja playing on 15" monitor needs to move mouse 7cm to cover such distance.
Agent playing on 22" monitor needs to move mouse 10cm to cover that same distance.

Means kja is at advantage since he will react few ms faster.
Now if agent uses cam to "smaller" that distance - he will see more of the map, than kja does - means Agent gets advantage.

There isn't a perfect solution honestly.

No one stops people from using windowed mode with correct resolution
Or -widescreen thingy

[luke]

    w3l.exe is a hack itself, why not ban for using it as well?

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

I have a different version of w3l.exe and can use different features, as read from previous posts -> not fair

    Gproxy.exe is a hack which gives advantage to people using it by letting them reconnect.

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

Gproxy puts more pressure and thus people with weaker connection are more likely to have problems

    Lagabuse.com bots are configured for lower delays, compared to official servers, also unfair.

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

Players with lower ping have an advantage with lower latency on la bots, compared to playing with default warcraft 3 latency towards people with higher ping, no?

The fact hack is now built-in is wrong

I don't think its that wrong. Even if dracolich decided to remove warding and enable maphack for everyone, it would be a game aspect, not a hack.

even Dracol1ch's team calls it camhack

They also use another hack, the memhack which the whole new map is built on, why not object against it and say its wrong?


Edit: isn't -widescreen a thing which was introduced in 1.28.x versions?

[guest49825]

I have a different version of w3l.exe and can use different features, as read from previous posts -> not fair

LINK WITH MY REPLY:
> This is temporary solution, just to "feel it in-game and early testing stages", i`ll include it more hard-way for lil hackers

Gproxy puts more pressure and thus people with weaker connection are more likely to have problems

People with weak connections should not even play competitive games, they ruin it anyway. We have ladder here, if this word still has some meaning for people (well, for me not). People with weak connections are having problems in their connections, not in gproxy, the hell.

Players with lower ping have an advantage with lower latency on la bots, compared to playing with default warcraft 3 latency towards people with higher ping, no?

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?
Are people playing on la bots and people with default war3 latency being in same game (i repeat even using bold font)?

I don't think its that wrong. Even if dracolich decided to remove warding and enable maphack for everyone, it would be a game aspect, not a hack.

That`s dumb. We could just switch to Chinesse dota map, they even released Monkey king hero already and they are having no in-game hacks. When map developer gets crazy (is not yet. the camhack is only one weird case for now), we should stop considering things as 'game aspects'. We are not dumb sheeps, we can select things.

Spoiler for Hiden:

They also use another hack, the memhack which the whole new map is built on, why not object against it and say its wrong?

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

Edit: isn't -widescreen a thing which was introduced in 1.28.x versions?

We are reading here opinions of people, which were playing 1.28.x warcraft for few years, what is the point of this question?
Widescreen can be implemented for 1.26 too if need

[Astaroth]

I was reading those posts but I had to stop and skip them.

Simply, stop including hacks in your games and stop calling them feature.

I understand that people are lazy and bad in many things (generally, not just DotA or gaming). But making things easier for them is not a way to improvement.

[Akuma]

The problem (which everyone fails to explain) on big screen is distance.

Moving your mouse from point A to point B, with or without using cam.

I'll give an example,
kja playing on 15" monitor needs to move mouse 7cm to cover such distance.
Agent playing on 22" monitor needs to move mouse 10cm to cover that same distance.

Means kja is at advantage since he will react few ms faster.
Now if agent uses cam to "smaller" that distance - he will see more of the map, than kja does - means Agent gets advantage.

There isn't a perfect solution honestly.

No one stops people from using windowed mode with correct resolution
Or -widescreen thingy

I doubt anyone wants to play on windowed mode, using half of his screen... and -widescreen did not come with w3 in 1.26, so you can consider that one a hack as well

The problem is w3 is 15 years old, and MAX resolution which comes in game was created in 2003, when monitors were, well 2003 edition at best.

As I said, and I'll repeat, I don't mind having this camhack option removed, I don't mind leaving it as it is either. Won't argue any further.

[guest49825]

About monitors, i repeat 99999th time - i AGREE about it, but i just need proofs - screenshots
Maybe there is another, better solution

Maybe we will calculate cam distance personally for every resolution and call it feature, lul

> I doubt anyone wants to play on windowed mode
I play 1.26 windowed while streaming it btw
But yes, i agree about this one.

> and -widescreen did not come with w3 in 1.26, so you can consider that one a hack as well
Ehm, no. This is video renderer option, not in-game camera option
And this is brought by main game developers to 1.28+ as a special feature for widescreen monitors. So we could port it into 1.26. Probably.

[luke]

People with weak connections should not even play competitive games

Well, then people with weak PCs who have 10 fps should not play dota too? Or should we also force everyone to play on 10 fps so its fair?

Should people with bad mice not play dota? Or should we set a limit on mouse sensitivity/dpi for everyone, so its fair?

Don't get me wrong but your argumentation looks pretty similar for me.

Are people playing on la bots and people with default war3 latency being in same game (i repeat even using bold font)?

If the same people with same pcs and connection would play on standard latency, the other half of people would have the advantage then. My point is that you just can't make it equal for everyone, unless you let them sit next to each other with same PCs and LAN, just like on every competitive event. What we have here is more about fun than real strict competition.

    They also use another hack, the memhack which the whole new map is built on, why not object against it and say its wrong?

How does it provide advantage to players compared to another players in same game?

It is about the definition of a hack. If there would not be such feature which everyone can use without installing any third party stuff, it would be definitely a bannable hack. If there is a feature, it doesn't matter how you call it, its a game aspect (bad or good, thats another question), same as taking advantage of vulnerabilities inside war3 engine.

We are reading here opinions of people, which were playing 1.28.x warcraft for few years, what is the point of this question?
Widescreen can be implemented for 1.26 too if need

The point is that there is no such feature in 1.26 as far as i remember and these people won't be able to use what you are suggesting.

When map developer gets crazy (is not yet. the camhack is only one weird case for now), we should stop considering things as 'game aspects'. We are not dumb sheeps, we can select things.

No, but as long as we can't make our own map we have it use his, thats pretty clear.

So to summarize my opinion:
1) Small screen user with default cam range has advantage over big screen user with default cam range -> not fair
2) Big screen user with bigger cam range has advantage over small screen user with default cam range -> not fair
3) Small screen user with bigger cam range has advantage over big screen user with bigger cam range -> questionable
4) Small screen user with bigger cam range has advantage over big screen user with default cam range -> definitely not fair

So, no matter how i look at it, you can't make it absolutely fair for everyone. This or the other way it will be unfair. Nr4 seems to be the worst combination through. However, the fact that many people are used to camhack should also be considered.


EDIT

About monitors, i repeat 99999th time - i AGREE about it, but i just need proofs - screenshots
Maybe there is another, better solution

Finally a reasonable proposal. We should definitely wait for proofs

Maybe we will calculate cam distance personally for every resolution and call it feature, lul

Ehm, no. This is video renderer option, not in-game camera option
And this is brought by main game developers to 1.28+ as a special feature for widescreen monitors. So we could port it into 1.26. Probably.

Might be, thats also worth discussing