Information request

[Akuma]

OK, I got forum banned for 2 days, not quite a big deal, but I would like some explanations from mr @jeandarc  and the rest.

1.
I'll quote mr jeandarc for a moment:

Locking thread - threads where people go offtopic and start to insult others will continue to get locked, whether you like it or not.

http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?topic=189465.0
I'd like you to point out where my post was insulting anyone, and why did it get locked in this specific thread. It was posted in offtopic section, which is meant for all kind of things. I'd also like to mention that offtopic section has 5 or more pages of unlocked threads most of them being absolutely meaningless, while my got locked.

Deleted threads - threads where you or someone else start insulting someone and get personal with them from the first post will continue to get deleted, whether you like it or not.

I'd like to know what in my deleted thread was insulting (you can answer me via PM if you don't want to post it here) so I know what NOT to post in future.

Getting warned for insulting someone, especially getting personal with them - you will continue to get warned, whether you like it or not.
Why others didn't get warned but I did - you insulting someone and their personal life doesn't get excused because someone else did it in the past. If you want them warned/banned you have the freedom to report them, but in no way you can take them as an excuse to continue insulting other people, whether you like it or not.
About removing your warn - the warn rightfully stays, as a matter of fact now that I reread how you insulted Mara, I'm gonna give you another +5 warn points.

Once I get required information from first two questions, I will decide whether I post a massive complaint about other people or not, I want to know what is accepted and what is not accepted here
If your explanation satisfies me I will gladly take in 10 infraction points you given me and I will even apologize about my thread.

Nothing important but a remainder, I am the guy who reworked rules some time ago, things I posted were not a big deal at that specific time, so I am inquiring about possible changes which I am probably not aware about at this moment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.
I got 15 warning points for "spam" and I absolutely cannot agree that my post was spam.
http://dota.eurobattle.net/la/forum/index.php?topic=189470.0

I provided detailed information why in my opinion certain feature should be reintroduced.
my opinion could be either right or wrong about this matter (that's not actually important at the moment), but it certainly wasn't a "spam" it was a valid suggestion it wasn't offensive and it was according to forum rules (I even apologized and explained why I opened another topic, as well as asked for merging).
Anyway, suggestions should never be considered a spam, whether they are good or bad, should be open for discussion at least for a while, and people should never get warned for posting a suggestion.

I would obviously want these warn points removed.

I would also like this thread not to be instantly closed until we reach some kind of agreement.

[cen]

Whether something is insulting or not is up to staff to decide on case by case basis, it is impossible to put such a general thing into the rule book. You were denied by two staff members already, opening yet another complaint won't change anything. Feel free to read the rules again in your spare time.

0. General Codex
Note: All decisions are mainly rendered by Moderators and can vary from those from 'Table of Sanctions'.
      Note: Admins' words are always indisputable.

1. Member must not spam:
      c: Spam with requests (Ban, Unban, MH) is not allowed.

3. Member must not insult users:

[Akuma]

Whether something is insulting or not is up to staff to decide on case by case basis, it is impossible to put such a general thing into the rule book. You were denied by two staff members already, opening yet another complaint won't change anything. Feel free to read the rules again in your spare time.

0. General Codex
Note: All decisions are mainly rendered by Moderators and can vary from those from 'Table of Sanctions'.
      Note: Admins' words are always indisputable.

1. Member must not spam:
      c: Spam with requests (Ban, Unban, MH) is not allowed.

3. Member must not insult users:

I am aware of this, I am not complaining about decision about those +10 for "insulting" any longer, but I still want to know what exactly in my posts was considered insulting in order not to post such things again. Mr. Jeandarc can answer either here, either via PM choice is his.

I ask this mainly because these kind of things were not considered "insulting" a while ago.

----
About spam thingy, you maybe didn't read my request(s) correctly.

For years there was a sticky topic (B&U Team), while it was in lagabuse staff all the time as well.

1. I ask why certain feature (which was available for years) was removed, and ask to bring it back.
2. Admin didn't answer my question properly and tells me there is b&u in staff list (and it was there all the time, even while it was stickied as well, and I was perfectly aware of it).
3. I was unsatisfied with an answer (because my question actually didn't get answered). I was given information I already possessed, so I open another topic to clarify what exactly my question was. I even kindly asked to merge my topics and give me a proper explanation.

4. I am NOT unsatisfied with answer in my second topic, I expected* to get this answer in first topic (therefore I wouldn't even open second topic), but instead I was given useless information and my question was not answered. (So basically my suggestion wasn't dealt with properly the first time).
(perhaps my suggestion was not a good suggestion, but still it was a valid suggestion right? )

5. I ended up with 15 warn points for spamming, and I still don't consider my post a spam, as explained.

Also important note: This wasn't a complaint request, it was a suggestion, there is a big difference when someone opens "complaints" in a bulk or posts a "suggestion".
So basically this topic is
1. Requesting information
2. Complaint about absolutely another thing from other complaint I posted.
I posted them in same thread, perhaps I needed two of them.
regards.

*by expected I mean - get at least some proper explanation why something was changed, and not getting something I already know.

[luke]

Sorry for spamming but since i was working with Akuma for a long time i believe that i understand his problem and am able to clarify things for him.

Explanation is very simple, the rules are written the way that anyone can be banned for anything, its just a matter of how the Staff want to interpret your messages. There are additional rules which prohibit trolling, spamming and rebellions which you did clearly break. It seems that the topic with them was deleted but its clear that they are still in effect.

As for you participating in writing down the rules as you claim, it doesn't mean that they don't apply to you or me.

As told by Cen, spamming topics is forbidden as well as Admin's words are indisputable. What you are doing now is just giving the Staff more reasons to ban you (just like i'm doing now...).

[Akuma]

Explanation is very simple, the rules are written the way that anyone can be banned for anything, its just a matter of how the Staff want to interpret your messages. There are additional rules which prohibit trolling, spamming and rebellions which you did clearly break. It seems that the topic with them was deleted but its clear that they are still in effect.

I am aware of this, I want to hear his interpretation of this specific rule so I don't repeat myself again.

As for you participating in writing down the rules as you claim, it doesn't mean that they don't apply to you or me.

I never said rules don't apply to me.

As told by Cen, spamming topics is forbidden as well as Admin's words are indisputable. What you are doing now is just giving the Staff more reasons to ban you (just like i'm doing now...).

This is a completely different discussion, about completely different warn, therefore it mustn't be considered a spam.

(While having some info-seeking from the previous warns, it shouldn't be considered as a complaint in my point 1. rather information request  as topic name suggests. )

[cen]

Whether something is insulting or not is up to staff to decide on case by case basis, it is impossible to put such a general thing into the rule book. You were denied by two staff members already, opening yet another complaint won't change anything. Feel free to read the rules again in your spare time.

0. General Codex
Note: All decisions are mainly rendered by Moderators and can vary from those from 'Table of Sanctions'.
      Note: Admins' words are always indisputable.

1. Member must not spam:
      c: Spam with requests (Ban, Unban, MH) is not allowed.

3. Member must not insult users:

I am aware of this, I am not complaining about decision about those +10 for "insulting" any longer, but I still want to know what exactly in my posts was considered insulting in order not to post such things again. Mr. Jeandarc can answer either here, either via PM choice is his.

I ask this mainly because these kind of things were not considered "insulting" a while ago.

----
About spam thingy, you maybe didn't read my request(s) correctly.

For years there was a sticky topic (B&U Team), while it was in lagabuse staff all the time as well.

1. I ask why certain feature (which was available for years) was removed, and ask to bring it back.
2. Admin didn't answer my question properly and tells me there is b&u in staff list (and it was there all the time, even while it was stickied as well, and I was perfectly aware of it).
3. I was unsatisfied with an answer (because my question actually didn't get answered). I was given information I already possessed, so I open another topic to clarify what exactly my question was. I even kindly asked to merge my topics and give me a proper explanation.

4. I am NOT unsatisfied with answer in my second topic, I expected* to get this answer in first topic (therefore I wouldn't even open second topic), but instead I was given useless information and my question was not answered. (So basically my suggestion wasn't dealt with properly the first time).
(perhaps my suggestion was not a good suggestion, but still it was a valid suggestion right? )

5. I ended up with 15 warn points for spamming, and I still don't consider my post a spam, as explained.

Also important note: This wasn't a complaint request, it was a suggestion, there is a big difference when someone opens "complaints" in a bulk or posts a "suggestion".
So basically this topic is
1. Requesting information
2. Complaint about absolutely another thing from other complaint I posted.
I posted them in same thread, perhaps I needed two of them.
regards.

*by expected I mean - get at least some proper explanation why something was changed, and not getting something I already know.

1. As I said, it is case by case and a personal decision. This is precisely why this board was opened so if someone thinks such a decision was wrong another staff can take a look at it. Now you know what kind of topic and wording is considered an insult. Absolutely no reason for admin to draw you a map and explain it word by word why it is an insult. He can I guess, that is up to jean if he feels like it.

Case closed for point 1.

2. The first answer to your question was a clear hint that staff list already exists and there is no interest to have another list with the same information which then needs to be maintained on two places.

Your complaint then is for receiving warns about the b&u list. That is therefore noted and will be reviewed.

[Akuma]

2. The first answer to your question was a clear hint that staff list already exists

And I was perfectly aware of this, so the information provided was meaningless to me.
(My question wasn't if the staff list exists anywhere, but why doesn't it exist where it used to exist.)

there is no interest to have another list with the same information which then needs to be maintained on two places.

Perhaps true, but it was something that stood there for years and people (including myself) got used to it.

Your complaint then is for receiving warns about the b&u list. That is therefore noted and will be reviewed.

Exactly, I don't consider my suggestion-explanation a spam, and I disagree it should be treated as such.

Thanks.

[Akuma]

Also a suggestion, to avoid these situations, hope you consider it.

1. Suggestion threads shouldn't be instantly closed, but rather remain open for a few days, and perhaps be explained-discussed (or until some agreement is reached).
2. Admins should try to explain the situation in best way possible instead of giving some "generic" answers.

[Jimmy]

Exactly, I don't consider my suggestion-explanation a spam, and I disagree it should be treated as such.

Forum Rules
1. Member must not spam:
      a: Topics about subject which already exist will be locked.

Definition of spam pulled from Rules directly.

[Akuma]

OK lets put it as simply as possible:

Me: Hey admins why is train to London not going this evening?
Jimmy: You have a bus station. (Locks thread/closes discussion)

what do we get from here?

1. I still have no idea why train isn't going (So I am probably going to ask again)
2. You told me I have a bus, I was already aware I have a bus station, I don't want to take a bus from the station, I want to know why train isn't going, while that same train was going from there for years.

Its this simple.

[Jimmy]

Among many things, i note Intelligence as your virtue.
You have deep understanding of Forum, System and Organization.

Therefore , i adjusted my Answer according to that.
In the second post[Noted as Spam] , i provided a deeper answer [according to the Reply].

Regarding this post, you Opened it Requesting an Explanation from Jeandarc and rest.
As i noted above, Spam is considered when User opens Topics regarding same subject.
Jeandarc posted his Explanation about Warning you, and i posted about banning you. [in detail].
So, this is also considered as Spam, literally.

Note this.

OK, I got forum banned for 2 days, not quite a big deal, but I would like some explanations from mr @jeandarc  and the rest.

Jeandarc Post :

Alright from what I can see you are complaining about these decisions:

Locking thread - threads where people go offtopic and start to insult others will continue to get locked, whether you like it or not.
Deleted threads - threads where you or someone else start insulting someone and get personal with them from the first post will continue to get deleted, whether you like it or not.
Getting warned for insulting someone, especially getting personal with them - you will continue to get warned, whether you like it or not.
Why others didn't get warned but I did - you insulting someone and their personal life doesn't get excused because someone else did it in the past. If you want them warned/banned you have the freedom to report them, but in no way you can take them as an excuse to continue insulting other people, whether you like it or not.
About removing your warn - the warn rightfully stays, as a matter of fact now that I reread how you insulted Mara, I'm gonna give you another +5 warn points.

Enjoy

Note that you Jeandarc [and rest] , posted why you Got warned.
And that Me [the Rest] ,posted why you got Banned.

Me [the Rest] :

Jeandarc Warned you for Insulting Staff member [and/or His family].
And i banned you for 48 hours ,because you got warned twice in the same day.
Better to stop it now, rather than letting it continue, and you getting More serious Sanction.

Note that your Work is valued [by Rest] (Me) , resulting in the Unlocking your Account. Returning your Post count, and reintegrating in Forum.

Can we stop this now?.

[jeandarc]

I am aware of this, I want to hear his interpretation of this specific rule so I don't repeat myself again.

Don't post the same way you posted about Mara and you should be just fine.

The reason why topics like this get locked is for the same reason why posts in ban/unban section get locked, it's because people will never accept that they broke the rule. Just the same way people will never say "Yes, I did in fact unplug my internet cable so it would seem like I got disconnected because I wanted to leave the game to avoid getting banned", you will never accept that the way you insulted Mara and his girlfriend is insulting.

If you have any other complaints beside this one, feel free to open them because apparently you do have the free time to do this all day long, but opening another thread about this very same subject will be considered as a spam because unlike you I don't have all day long to give you a definition on what "insult" means.

!locked

[jeandarc]

unlocked for akuma to give his final speech as requested by him...

[Akuma]

Alright,

As I still disagree that my "spam" warns were just I hope they will be reviewed soon, as well as I hope the outgoing result is satisfactory. Please post your decision here mr.cen.

Also a suggestion, to avoid these situations, hope you consider it.

1. Suggestion threads shouldn't be instantly closed, but rather remain open for a few days, and perhaps be explained-discussed (or until some agreement is reached).
2. Admins should try to explain the situation in best way possible instead of giving some "generic" answers.

I hope this suggestion gets accepted as well, and that suggestions and questions won't be instantly locked any more.

Also giving an "unofficial" warning before actually warning someone is quite a good practice, but its up to you guys to decide.

PS: Jimmy, I respect your work and dedication, as well as yourself, but you need to make a balance between these things, especially when something constructive approaches, because these things don't work in your favour.
(Also this an example how can thread have some discussion without being locked, and not turning into flame war or whatever)
PS2: Also, I had like 5x posts I have atm but who cares, i'd like them as they are now.

Lock it, and thanks.
 

[cen]

After careful consideration of forum rules, removing 10 warn points.

No changes in complaint board rules, moderators are capable enough to judge when a topic should be closed and when it should be left open. We don't need fine grained rules to take into account every aspect of this board.

I will also take this opportunity to remind you that the fact you are even allowed back on this forum is a sign of incredible goodwill from LA staff and you will for some time or maybe forever be judged with inherent negative bias in anything you do. If you were to seek confrontations in the future, then this experiment will go downhill very quickly.